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Las Vegas

  1. #201
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    Re: Las Vegas


    Interesting parallels between "knife crime" in the U.K. and "gun violence" in the U.S. Same basic set of problems, different weapons.

    Beyond the blade: the truth about knife crime in Britain | UK news | The Guardian

    Homicide and knife crime rates 'up in England and Wales' - BBC News

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  2. #202
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Interesting that the bbc also reports a 13% (in line with most other stats in that article) increase in crimes with firearms.

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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    I think what gun-nuts base most of their arguments (and they are just going wrong about imo) is that giving any rights up will just show that the government can do whatever they want and they will keep going after peoples rights.
    The history of "gun control" in the U.S. contradicts that statement though.

    Also these two comments from the most rabid on the left should be telling as well....

    Feinstein: No Laws Would Have Prevented Vegas - Bearing Arms

    'Slippery slope' of bump stock ban - Washington Times

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  4. #204
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    Las Vegas

    A rise in the percentage of an occurrence is a great way of skewing data to show something is increasing (or decreasing) at a rate more dramatically than the reality. This is why rates per 100,000 are used when studying populations.


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    Last edited by loudbeard; 10-09-17 at 10:58 AM.
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    The history of "gun control" in the U.S. contradicts that statement though.

    Also these two comments from the most rabid on the left should be telling as well....

    Feinstein: No Laws Would Have Prevented Vegas - Bearing Arms

    'Slippery slope' of bump stock ban - Washington Times
    Rabid, eh? Slant much?
    What this basically tells me is: you don’t want to participate in meaningful discussion, the fact that you’ve written the left off as rabid.
    I’m speaking to you as an individual, not someone with left or right leanings.

    Edit: As far as feinstein's statement, it's impossible to prove one way or the next if she's right or wrong. It's also a pretty politically smart thing to say within 24hrs of announcing your intent to run for re-election. That, as some like to say, feels kind of swampy.

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    Last edited by Chippertheripper; 10-09-17 at 11:25 AM.
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  6. #206
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Rabid, eh? Slant much?
    What this basically tells me is: you don’t want to participate in meaningful discussion, the fact that you’ve written the left off as rabid.
    .
    Rabid is an applicable term in the case of Feinstein and Pelosi when it comes to gun control.

    You're implication that I've written off all the left as rabid is off base. I've written off a lot of what the rabid right has to say on a bunch of topics as well.

    As an individual, and how I think most of this country really is as well, I'm not really left or right.

    I'm pretty far right on guns, but pretty far left on a lot (not all) when it comes to social issues.

    I'll consider participating in a "meaningful" discussion when we're ready (as a country) to actually have one. Currently, the bulk of what I see from people who disagree with me are more b.s. that even they will admit won't solve the problem they claim to be trying to solve or emotional rants from people who call people like me baby killers and say the blood is on our hands.

    Do you seriously expect me to be willing to engage in any type of meaningful conversation when that is the environment the conversation is expected to take place in?

    Old, but still relevant: How the Left “Blew It” on Gun Control – Mother Jones

    Also, I'm sure most have seen this by now. If the media expects gun owners to have a meaningful conversation, drop the slant and stop trying to scare people with no knowledge of firearms....

    Las Vegas-bump-jpg

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  7. #207
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    Re: Las Vegas

    If you don't think meaningful conversation can be had, then what are you doing in this thread, amongst your peers? We are the people you should be trying to engage with.
    AFAIK, I haven't said to take all the guns away. So, short of that, there's got to be something to be done. No legislation is going to prevent every instance, clearly, or drunk driving wouldn't be a thing anymore, so why is it so difficult to state your level of comfort for solving what is demonstrably an actual problem in this country? Or should we legalize DUI too?

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  8. #208
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    If you don't think meaningful conversation can be had, then what are you doing in this thread, amongst your peers? We are the people you should be trying to engage with.
    AFAIK, I haven't said to take all the guns away. So, short of that, there's got to be something to be done. No legislation is going to prevent every instance, clearly, or drunk driving wouldn't be a thing anymore, so why is it so difficult to state your level of comfort for solving what is demonstrably an actual problem in this country? Or should we legalize DUI too?
    My level of comfort is 0 in the emotionally charged atmosphere that always follow any type of event like this and none of the solutions proposed (past or present) take any real step in solving the actual problem. It's not really about gun violence, it's about control. Until those on the other side freely admit that their proposed solutions have nothing to do with safety, other than capitalizing on the public fear at the time, there's not much real discussion to be had.

    You claim a peer group is the people we should be trying to engage with, but just look at this thread as a microcosm. The tone of responses to Phil, myself and a few others is mostly condescension and arrogance or to imply we're soulless and hearltess etc... because we won't jump on the bandwagon. This is directed at people who have met before or have less than six degrees of seperation from each other in a lot of cases. How is it possible to expect a meaningful conversation to take place amongst people who are anonymous and hiding behind a keyboard when people who know each other degrade to this level?

    That said, if you want a proposal on something that would make an immediate difference in reducing heedless deaths it would be training and education. Kids killing kids because they have no idea how dangerous something can be is assinine, yet education is off the table because it doesn't fit the gun control agenda. It's much easier to ban something, but in the end kids still die. The blood is on the hands of the left there.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 10-09-17 at 12:23 PM.
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  9. #209
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    My level of comfort is 0 in the emotionally charged atmosphere that always follow any type of event like this.

    You claim a peer group is the people we should be trying to engage with, but just look at this thread as a microcosm. The tone of responses to Phil, myself and a few others is mostly condescension and arrogance or to imply we're soulless and hearltess etc... because we won't jump on the bandwagon. This is directed at people who have met before or have less than six degrees of seperation from each other in a lot of cases. How is it possible to expect a meaningful conversation to take place amongst people who are anonymous and hiding behind a keyboard when people who know each other degrade to this level?
    Phil has replied with his usual anarchist schtick. He basically refuses to deviate from that on any topic.
    If your level of comfort is nil, then I ask again, why are you here? you'd already written it off before it even began.
    I don't recall babykiller or anything about the blood being on anybody's hands. It kinda feels like projection on your part.


    I will, however, stand by my statements about people carrying out of fear.

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  10. #210
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    If your level of comfort is nil, then I ask again, why are you here? you'd already written it off before it even began.
    I don't recall babykiller or anything about the blood being on anybody's hands. It kinda feels like projection on your part.
    Babykiller etc... is more on FB than this thread, but the point remains when we're labled as that you can't expect us to engage.

    I post here because I have no interest in this being a one sided slam fest. I have no expectation anything I post will change your mind or some others in the thread. There are always many more people who read these threads than post in them though and many of them may not have a strong opinion either way at this point. My hope is to offer a different perspective and maybe that helps them form a more educated opinion on the topic before they "choose a side" so to speak. Best case scenario is that they might question a lot of what they're seeing on the news and do some research on their own before doing so in any case.

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  11. #211
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Ah. The "mainstream media"

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  12. #212
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    My level of comfort is 0 in the emotionally charged atmosphere that always follow any type of event like this and none of the solutions proposed (past or present) take any real step in solving the actual problem. It's not really about gun violence, it's about control. Until those on the other side freely admit that their proposed solutions have nothing to do with safety, other than capitalizing on the public fear at the time, there's not much real discussion to be had.

    You claim a peer group is the people we should be trying to engage with, but just look at this thread as a microcosm. The tone of responses to Phil, myself and a few others is mostly condescension and arrogance or to imply we're soulless and hearltess etc... because we won't jump on the bandwagon. This is directed at people who have met before or have less than six degrees of seperation from each other in a lot of cases. How is it possible to expect a meaningful conversation to take place amongst people who are anonymous and hiding behind a keyboard when people who know each other degrade to this level?

    That said, if you want a proposal on something that would make an immediate difference in reducing heedless deaths it would be training and education. Kids killing kids because they have no idea how dangerous something can be is assinine, yet education is off the table because it doesn't fit the gun control agenda. It's much easier to ban something, but in the end kids still die. The blood is on the hands of the left there.
    Are you suggesting that education and training would decrease the number of young people shot in our inner cities? If their access to guns remains as it is now and they were better educated and trained, I think the only thing that would improve is their aim!

    I'm not even sure that mandatory life without parole for all for any murder committed with a gun (which is not a recommendation, just an example) would be a significant deterrent in these cases, so a class on "respecting the values of human life and the dangers of irresponsible use of firearms" is just plain silly.

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  13. #213
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    Las Vegas

    Edit: wrong thread.

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    Last edited by loudbeard; 10-09-17 at 01:50 PM.
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  14. #214
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Are you suggesting that education and training would decrease the number of young people shot in our inner cities? If their access to guns remains as it is now and they were better educated and trained, I think the only thing that would improve is their aim!

    I'm not even sure that mandatory life without parole for all for any murder committed with a gun (which is not a recommendation, just an example) would be a significant deterrent in these cases, so a class on "respecting the values of human life and the dangers of irresponsible use of firearms" is just plain silly.
    I missed his edit. Marc, I'm pretty sure even you know that the inner city youths you keep referencing know that guns kill. To swamp them with programs to educate on such matters does nothing to put the blood on somebody else's hands. And by posting such a thing, it's almost as if you've accepted that other side's view that the blood is on your hands and you're trying to lay blame elsewhere.
    I'm not into saying one side is responsible. As citizens, we all are, which is really why the discussion needs to take place, however uncomfortable.

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  15. #215
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I missed his edit. Marc, I'm pretty sure even you know that the inner city youths you keep referencing know that guns kill. To swamp them with programs to educate on such matters does nothing to put the blood on somebody else's hands. And by posting such a thing, it's almost as if you've accepted that other side's view that the blood is on your hands and you're trying to lay blame elsewhere.
    I'm not into saying one side is responsible. As citizens, we all are, which is really why the discussion needs to take place, however uncomfortable.
    What edit?

    Those who want no restrictions or no additional restrictions on guns will point anywhere and everywhere except at the availability of guns to gun-splain gun deaths

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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    What edit?

    Those who want no restrictions or no additional restrictions on guns will point anywhere and everywhere except at the availability of guns to gun-splain gun deaths
    He edited the post you quoted to add in the bit about educating kids that guns kill.

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  17. #217
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by obsolete View Post
    Is there any proof of this being the intention of the 2nd Amendment? I'd like to read that.
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    None of us truly know what the framers would think or do today. We know what they thought then and there.
    Hope this works, never inserted a Vimeo video, if not click the link it's a good clip whichever side you're on:




    And as far as this "discussion" goes, here are the 10 points that summarize it:

    1)people suck, can't be fixed, deal with it
    2)people die, discussing how is pedantic, deal with it
    3)guns don't kill people, see #1, deal with it
    4)second amendment is infallible, and absolute, deal with it
    4)reasonable discussion on this topic is unpossible, see #1, deal with it
    5)the number of people who die is acceptable, percentage wise, deal with it
    6)politicians are inherently slanted, see #1, deal with it
    7)research is manipulated, therefore useless, deal with it
    8)logic is relative to "viewpoint", not absolute, deal with it
    9)nobody has an acceptable solution, see #1, deal with it
    10)did I mention people suck, deal with it!

    Of course being a "people" I suck, so I could be wrong Argue on, I have a feeling someone is about to win

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  18. #218
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Are you suggesting that education and training would decrease the number of young people shot in our inner cities? If their access to guns remains as it is now and they were better educated and trained, I think the only thing that would improve is their aim!

    I'm not even sure that mandatory life without parole for all for any murder committed with a gun (which is not a recommendation, just an example) would be a significant deterrent in these cases, so a class on "respecting the values of human life and the dangers of irresponsible use of firearms" is just plain silly.
    No. The larger issue with inner cities and the violence there is much more complex and what I had in mind is not a solution for that, though better education in the general sense would certainly help there. If you read the articles I posted on the U.K. you'll find they're going through the same basic issues, just not with guns. We can all talk until we're blue in the face, or even hit utopia for some and remove all the guns right off the planet, and we'll still have the same issues in the inner cities in both countries.

    I was thinking more specifically along the lines of basic safety education among everyone at a younger age. We teach fire safety to kids (stop, drop and roll etc...) but don't tell them shit when it comes to firearms. When they come across it inadvertently, or advertently because an adult was careless enough to leave it unsecured around children who weren't ready, they end up killing each other or others because it's viewed as a toy or they simply don't understand how dangerous it really is and because it's taboo to talk about it.

    There are programs out there that are free to school districts that teach kids to stop, don't touch and tell an adult. They don't teach safe handling or anything like or expose your precious to using the evil guns, so there really should be no excuse for the number of kids who kill themselves or each other by mistake. No one wants to see on the news that a 6 yr old accidently shot their sibling or something similar. That should be fairly easy to prevent but every time it comes up it gets shot down because guns are bad, mmmmkay. It's to the point that the hoplophobes are basically ok with their kids dying vs acknowledging that there are options that would help keep them alive. Safety programs are not sensational enough of a solution and they do nothing to help further the true gun control agenda so they gain no traction. Instead there is actual push back against them because the best, and free, program out there comes from the NRA and there is no way those baby killers are going to allowed in a school. That will happen over a hoplophobes dead body. In reality, their kids are the ones who die instead. That's incredibly sad in my mind.

    Edit: Yes Chip, the blood in those cases is on someone else's hands. There are solutions that would help and the anti-gun folk choose not to utilize them. Guns aren't going anywhere whether some like that or not. It's in everyone's best interest to educate people regarding them instead of sticking heads in the sand and ignoring them.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 10-09-17 at 02:07 PM.
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  19. #219
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    He edited the post you quoted to add in the bit about educating kids that guns kill.
    Huh? It's not about educating kids that guns kill, it's that they're are dangerous and a lot of kids have no concept of that at a younger age. Of course the kids in the gangs know full well what they are doing and inundating them with a safety program isn't going to change shit. I explained it better in my reply to Steve.

    That comment also wasn't meant specifically about inner cities yet you decided to make it about that? Just because I referenced the issues we have in inner cities as part of the problem does not mean I think they are the only issue and that if we could just magically "fix" them.

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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    What edit?

    Those who want no restrictions or no additional restrictions on guns will point anywhere and everywhere except at the availability of guns to gun-splain gun deaths
    Ok. On their other hand, those who want more gun control will advocate for it incessantly, in spite of mental health being the real issue. Thats either an agenda to cockblock the 2A, cowardice or just fucking lazy.

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    Re: Las Vegas

    I'm in the camp that believes what we have now is not working, but a full out ban is out of the question as well. We have so many illegal guns in this country that it would take generations to remove them all from the streets. Much of the gun violence in statistics is related to gang/drug activity, you aren't going to educate the guns out of those hands, you aren't going to obtain their weapons through by-back programs. What ever is done is going to take years to see a difference and we will never see a dramatic reduction in our lifetime. The mass shootings we have endured lately, albeit a horrible occurrence, are but a small portion of the deaths associated with guns. If you want to reduce gun crimes/deaths, you have to address the bulk of them.
    I am in favor of a graduated style of background check and training depending on the weapon purchased, similar to what we had/have in Mass. It isn't feasible to do a full mental assessment for every type of gun purchased, but I don't think having an indepth background check and training requirement on file to purchase a semi-auto Barrett would be a bad idea. Is it stepping across the line, I believe that it is, but I also feel that as a society we've earned it. In addition, I believe that punishment for gun crimes or crimes done with your gun should have stiffer penalties. Effective methods to reduce illegal weapons on the street should be implemented. Stolen guns, straw purchased, etc. are all a large problem. Start preventing the guns from getting into the hands that kill, and you'll have less deaths.

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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    Ok. On their other hand, those who want more gun control will advocate for it incessantly, in spite of mental health being the real issue. Thats either an agenda to cockblock the 2A, cowardice or just fucking lazy.
    Or they want reasonable measures implemented since the country obviously doesn't want health coverage in any form, including mental health.

    But it's cool, everything is black and white. U r 4 us or aginst us, right?

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  23. #223
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    Ok. On their other hand, those who want more gun control will advocate for it incessantly, in spite of mental health being the real issue. Thats either an agenda to cockblock the 2A, cowardice or just fucking lazy.
    I'd love to hear your plan for fixing all the crazy, and with that, your opinion on whether crazy people should be allowed to arm themselves to the teeth.

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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    ......

    I was thinking more specifically along the lines of basic safety education among everyone at a younger age. We teach fire safety to kids (stop, drop and roll etc...) but don't tell them shit when it comes to firearms. When they come across it inadvertently, or advertently because an adult was careless enough to leave it unsecured around children who weren't ready, they end up killing each other or others because it's viewed as a toy or they simply don't understand how dangerous it really is and because it's taboo to talk about it.

    There are programs out there that are free to school districts that teach kids to stop, don't touch and tell an adult. They don't teach safe handling or anything like or expose your precious to using the evil guns, so there really should be no excuse for the number of kids who kill themselves or each other by mistake. No one wants to see on the news that a 6 yr old accidently shot their sibling or something similar. That should be fairly easy to prevent but every time it comes up it gets shot down because guns are bad, mmmmkay. It's to the point that the hoplophobes are basically ok with their kids dying vs acknowledging that there are options that would help keep them alive. Safety programs are not sensational enough of a solution and they do nothing to help further the true gun control agenda so they gain no traction. Instead there is actual push back against them because the best, and free, program out there comes from the NRA and there is no way those baby killers are going to allowed in a school. That will happen over a hoplophobes dead body. In reality, their kids are the ones who die instead. That's incredibly sad in my mind.
    Yes, several years ago the NRA had a training program in place, Eddie the Eagle or something was the figure head. It was simple teaching the kids don't touch, get away, tell an adult. But the NRA was chastised because it had hidden motives to promote itself to kids and increase their membership long term. And the program was said to not meet the needs of society. Instead, a gun control group came forth with a program that was, "leave it alone, tell someone" program. That was heralded as a great accomplishment.
    Personally I don't care who gets the message across, just get it to the kids, especially those who know nothing. It's pretty odd to me that our entertainment society hates weapons, preaches against them, yet glorifies them in film, song, games, etc. Kids need to know to stay away from them, adults need to know to keep them out of kids' reach and stored safely. While losing a child to an accidental discharge is extreme punishment, it is also too late to change at that point.

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  25. #225
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    Re: Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    There are programs out there that are free to school districts that teach kids to stop, don't touch and tell an adult. They don't teach safe handling or anything like or expose your precious to using the evil guns
    Sounds like abstinence only programs...

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    Mistake - 1992 WR250ZD / 2000 LS650P / 2019 KTM 150SX / 2016 KTM 250XC

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