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Live free... Or don't?

  1. #51
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?


    Quote Originally Posted by sveesix View Post
    That isn't worth taking illegals off the street?
    Not at all. not. at. all.

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  2. #52
    Lifer
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    I am all for the government keeping the peace and applying regulations where necessary and effective, but the key word here is "effective". Interrupting the every day lives of millions of people to abide by a process that is in place to prevent a one in a million occurrence is far from effective. Now, let's consider the fact that the measures themselves may not be optimal in thwarting the one in a million occurrence and you start to see my point.

    How many people are being inconvenienced by these inspections and how many people do they actually catch? These are the questions I want to have answered before I voiced an opinion.
    According to NH DOT (https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/operation.../woodstock.pdf) about 11,000 people travel between exits 31 and 32 a daily basis. Break this down to the South bound only side and we get 5500 people per day. These checkpoints were not set up all day, so lets figure an 8 1/2 hour federal employee workday, and we are looking at under 2000 cars per checkpoint day. They left early on Thursday, assuming because they probably don't get travel pay (none of the agencies do right now), so under 5,000 cars were "inconvenienced" for 25 immigration arrests and 46 drug-related arrests (assuming the same number as last time). Just under 1.5 percent of screens resulted in arrests, .0092 were drug related.

    In 2016 Vermont State Police made 493,879 stops (VSP Traffic Stop Data | Vermont State Police). Only 105 of those stops resulted in arrest for contraband. That is .0002 percent of stops resulting in violations for contraband.

    I think these checkpoints are far more efficient by the numbers if you break it down!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Not at all. not. at. all.
    You are welcome to your opinion just like the rest of us.

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  3. #53
    Lifer wiggeywackyo's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Much like gun violence, I always saw illegals as the price of freedom. Great freedom comes with great responsibility. I don't agree with people saying racist shit maliciously, innocent people getting shot, or illegal immigrants, but I value freedom of speech, the right to bear arms and being secure from unreasonable search and seizure much, much more.

    You know one place that has very little of the above? China. I'm all set.

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  4. #54
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by sveesix View Post
    Calling PhilB!

    I have to pull out some of my old textbooks about Hobbes and the idea of a social contract.
    I made my comment above. I'm sure everyone knows exactly my position on this crap. I don't have time right now to get mired in this one; just close your eyes and imagine my responses.

    PhilB

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    Last edited by PhilB; 09-29-17 at 02:38 PM.
    "A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper." -- Ludwig von Mises
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  5. #55
    Lifer RyanNicholson's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    IMHO Yes, they do seem to catch some people... of course. The method makes me uncomfortable though. It doesn't seem much different than random searches while you're walking down the street, or having an officer just walk up to your house without a warrant and start asking questions for the hell of it. Obviously the latter being more extreme, but it can be a slippery slope as to what is considered acceptable.

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  6. #56
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by sveesix View Post
    According to NH DOT (https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/operation.../woodstock.pdf) about 11,000 people travel between exits 31 and 32 a daily basis. Break this down to the South bound only side and we get 5500 people per day. These checkpoints were not set up all day, so lets figure an 8 1/2 hour federal employee workday, and we are looking at under 2000 cars per checkpoint day. They left early on Thursday, assuming because they probably don't get travel pay (none of the agencies do right now), so under 5,000 cars were "inconvenienced" for 25 immigration arrests and 46 drug-related arrests (assuming the same number as last time). Just under 1.5 percent of screens resulted in arrests, .0092 were drug related.

    In 2016 Vermont State Police made 493,879 stops (VSP Traffic Stop Data | Vermont State Police). Only 105 of those stops resulted in arrest for contraband. That is .0002 percent of stops resulting in violations for contraband.

    I think these checkpoints are far more efficient by the numbers if you break it down!



    You are welcome to your opinion just like the rest of us.
    Do you have stats from NH? Those would be much more relevant considering VT tends to look the other way on such issues, particularly when it comes to immigration.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 09-29-17 at 01:35 PM.
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  7. #57
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanNicholson View Post
    IMHO Yes, they do seem to catch some people... of course. The method makes me uncomfortable though. It doesn't seem much different than random searches while you're walking down the street, or having an officer just walk up to your house without a warrant and start asking questions for the hell of it. Obviously the latter being more extreme, but it can be a slippery slope as to what is considered acceptable.
    Exactly.

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  8. #58
    Lifer
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Do you have stays from NH? Those would be much more relevant considering VT tends to look the other way on such issues, particularly when it comes to immigration.
    The only thing I can find (from their Safety Report) is that they made 153,331 MV stops in 2016 and arrested 1,310 for "impaired driving. That is .0085 percent, including drugs, alcohol, etc.

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  9. #59
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by sveesix View Post
    The only thing I can find (from their Safety Report) is that they made 153,331 MV stops in 2016 and arrested 1,310 for "impaired driving. That is .0085 percent, including drugs, alcohol, etc.
    Sooo .0092% vs .0085% for drug related offenses between the two methods. Essentially the same "catch" rate.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 09-29-17 at 10:33 AM.
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  10. #60
    Lifer
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Exactly.
    So an occasional checkpoint is unacceptable, but turning a blind eye to crime is acceptable.

    So message to criminals: just don't get caught, all you have to worry about is if you have a tail light out, and get pulled over.

    All in the interest of? Convenience.

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  11. #61
    Lifer
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Sooo .0092 vs .0085 for drug related offenses between the two. I'm not seeing much difference there.
    That is a significant difference, statistically speaking.

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  12. #62
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer View Post
    So an occasional checkpoint is unacceptable, but turning a blind eye to crime is acceptable.

    So message to criminals: just don't get caught, all you have to worry about is if you have a tail light out, and get pulled over.

    All in the interest of? Convenience.
    Nowhere did I say turning a blind eye to crime is acceptable. You're trying to put words in my mouth to justify your feelings.

    What is essentially a "stop and frisk" tactic is not acceptable to me. It's not about mere inconvenience. I'm really shocked you can't see the parallels here.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 09-29-17 at 10:40 AM.
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  13. #63
    Lifer
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Your argument reeks of, "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear".

    Do you feel the same way about overbearing electronic surveillance or TSA checkpoints at the airport? If it saves just one life right
    Are you putting words in my mouth?

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  14. #64
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    There's no arguing with the law and order crowd. Cop suckers will be cop suckers.

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  15. #65
    Lifer
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Nowhere did I say turning a blind eye to crime is acceptable. You're trying to put words in my mouth to justify your feelings.

    What is essentially a "stop and frisk" tactic is not acceptable to me. It's not about mere inconvenience. I'm really shocked you can't see the parallels here.
    Was it you that mentioned "legitimate" traffic stops? So leave it to dumb luck, if they happen to break a traffic law, only then will persons of interest, with nothing to lose, be prevented from commiting crime.

    "Stop and frisk"? Frisk? A little dramatic. Proper paper work? Cool have a nice day!

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  16. #66
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer View Post
    Are you putting words in my mouth?
    That was an opinion on your statement and a question.

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  17. #67
    Lifer
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Nowhere did I say turning a blind eye to crime is acceptable. You're trying to put words in my mouth to justify your feelings.

    What is essentially a "stop and frisk" tactic is not acceptable to me. It's not about mere inconvenience. I'm really shocked you can't see the parallels here.
    Stop and frisk clearly violates the fourth amendment. A checkpoint in which a simple "no" gets you through is not a violation. We aren't taking parallels here.

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  18. #68
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer View Post
    So an occasional checkpoint is unacceptable, but turning a blind eye to crime is acceptable.

    So message to criminals: just don't get caught, all you have to worry about is if you have a tail light out, and get pulled over.

    All in the interest of? Convenience.
    You call it convenience, others call it freedom. If you don't keep these things in check it can and will get out of control. When our daily lives are riddle with measures we are forced to implement so we can avoid things that are extremely unlikely to occur, my point becomes clear. Especially when you consider the "things" those measures are put in place to "protect" us from are still occurring in spite of them.

    I wonder if these checkpoints are a response to the opiod epidemic? When you look at it from that view, then it starts to put more into perspective. Again, I'm not necessarily against it, I just want these types of things to be very limited and only applied to extreme circumstances. The opiod crisis could qualify in my book but only if they have reason to believe there is a significant flow of supply from Canada coming down through Northern New England.

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  19. #69
    Lifer
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    There's no arguing with the law and order crowd. Cop suckers will be cop suckers.
    Who

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  20. #70
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gixxer View Post
    Was it you that mentioned "legitimate" traffic stops? So leave it to dumb luck, if they happen to break a traffic law, only then will persons of interest, with nothing to lose, be prevented from commiting crime.

    "Stop and frisk"? Frisk? A little dramatic. Proper paper work? Cool have a nice day!
    Please. It's not hard to find a legit reason to pull someone over. It's not quite dumb luck.

    It is close to stop and frisk in a sense. They stop people without probable cause or reasonable suspicion and search for a reason to make it legitimate. Frisking someone is akin to search.

    It's only dramatic if you want to take a strictly literal view. A frisk is physical to your person while a search can entail a few different things.

    Tomato tomatoe

    Seriously. Papers please?

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    Last edited by e30addict; 09-29-17 at 11:00 AM.
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  21. #71
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by sveesix View Post
    Stop and frisk clearly violates the fourth amendment. A checkpoint in which a simple "no" gets you through is not a violation. We aren't taking parallels here.
    Let me know how that simple no works out for you when you try it in real life.

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  22. #72
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by sveesix View Post
    An extra few minutes on the road? That isn't worth taking illegals off the street?
    a few extra minutes from me, a few extra minutes from you, a few extra minutes from the next guy coming down the road, and the next and the next, and next, and next...... adds up to hours of travel time, impacting the productivity of the transportation industry, adding costs to goods, to the cost of living, and pushing more and more people into poverty, that weren't even travelling on the road with the checkpoint

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  23. #73
    Lifer
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Let me know how that simple no works out for you when you try it in real life.
    It happens all the time at the checkpoints. Check the Youtuubes.

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  24. #74
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by sveesix View Post
    It happens all the time at the checkpoints. Check the Youtuubes.
    There are plenty of YouTube's were it doesn't go that well either

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  25. #75
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Live free... Or don't?

    For future reference, how do I say "I am a US citizen" in Arabic?

    If my time will be wasted, so will theirs.

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