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National Full Carry Permit

  1. #26
    Lifer Tekime's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit


    Quote Originally Posted by ZX-12R View Post
    Absolutely NO! You have no right to the illusion of safety especially if it affects my liberty.

    Benjamin Franklin said it best: “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
    So are you implying we should have no laws whatsoever that consider the degree of freedom society can bear, no matter the consequences? And did you even read the rest of my post which, as a non-gun-owner, fully support the right to bear arms with only limited consideration of criminals owning extremely powerful firearms?

    The defense of freedom extends far beyond gun control. If you support limitless freedom for ownership of powerful weapons (in which I suggest only a simple criminal background check), then surely you must also support the deregulation of all industry, which would grant corporations the right to dump waste in our backyards, extract every last shred of natural resources from the ground even when it wipes out entire species/cripples ecosystems we rely on, manipulate/extort our current system to monopolize control of resources and put every last farmer out of work (which we're well on the road to).. the list goes on obviously.

    As much as I wish we could all have complete freedom for any form of nanny governance, I recognize that the world is full of greedy and foolish people and I'm willing to accept some very basic parameters of compromise to have a functional society. In many ways that is what defines a functional society - being able to compromise on the wide spectrum of views so we can all get on together to some extent.

    Throwing around quotes from our forefathers is about as useful as throwing around bible quotes. It sounds nice and while I agree with the idealistic philosophy behind the idea, it isn't an argument. Laws that only create illusions don't concern me, it's the laws that actually work which I'm willing to think about.

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  2. #27
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Where are you drawing your conclusions from? There is no implication in what I wrote that we are better off with no laws. Laws are in place to keep you and me from infringing on the rights of other individuals. We already have laws in place against assult, murder, rape, theft, and the like. Our right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right which in no way affects other people's liberty. As such, implementing more laws to restrict my access to them is an infringement on my liberty.

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  3. #28
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Isn't there already a thread where we can stroke each other's guns?

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  4. #29
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Quote Originally Posted by ZX-12R View Post
    We already have laws in place against assult, murder, rape, theft, and the like.
    I hope you are aware that those are crimes against the individual states and not a federal crime

    The federal government has no right to make such laws (10th amendment)

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  5. #30
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    The point I was trying to convey is that I'm not anti-law.

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  6. #31
    Lifer Tekime's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Quote Originally Posted by ZX-12R View Post
    Where are you drawing your conclusions from? There is no implication in what I wrote that we are better off with no laws. Laws are in place to keep you and me from infringing on the rights of other individuals. We already have laws in place against assult, murder, rape, theft, and the like. Our right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right which in no way affects other people's liberty. As such, implementing more laws to restrict my access to them is an infringement on my liberty.
    I guess my emphasis is that the argument for liberty doesn't just apply to guns (IMO). I agree with the spirit of Franklin's statement, but to say I don't deserve liberty or safety because I'm willing to consider compromise in a country with 300+ million different viewpoints is absurd. We all deserve liberty & safety, even if our viewpoints don't coincide. I just don't think we can interpret the quote literally and apply it to every debate.

    I'm not convinced that gun regulation has any direct and significant impact on the safety of U.S. citizens, and I probably agree with your point of view more than it might seem. Or maybe not. But I do feel that the implications of the gun control debate go beyond the problems we're facing today - decisions we make now will influence decisions made well into the future. At some point we have to recognize that weapons are getting very sophisticated, and simply questioning the principles written down over 200 years ago doesn't strip a person of the rights and freedoms we should all have.

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  7. #32
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tekime View Post
    But I do feel that the implications of the gun control debate go beyond the problems we're facing today - decisions we make now will influence decisions made well into the future.
    Kinda like how the 4th ammendment shriveled and is now on it'so deathbed after 9/11 and everyone ran to the government to keep them safe from terrorists. How's that working out in the long run?

    We gave up a lot as a country after that and are arguably worse off than we were before.

    We don't need to keep making that same mistake over and over again.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 06-27-16 at 09:11 AM.
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  8. #33
    is not wearing pants Point37's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    By far, this is one of my favorite memes. It's not as good as some of the Kuntzman ones but those are a whole different deal.

    Attachment 45277
    This Repeating 20 Round Rifle Was Invented 12 Years BEFORE Second Amendment Was Ratified


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  9. #34
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    There's a reason that the branches in the military don't just hand untrained recruits a weapon and tell them to carry it whenever they want and to defend themselves with it however they see fit..... but I'm sure someone here would label that a "gun grab" or an infringement of the recruit's "liberty". The gun conversations here are an endless source of amusement.

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  10. #35
    Senior Member AEG's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Quote Originally Posted by bassomatic View Post
    There's a reason that the branches in the military don't just hand untrained recruits a weapon and tell them to carry it whenever they want and to defend themselves with it however they see fit..... but I'm sure someone here would label that a "gun grab" or an infringement of the recruit's "liberty". The gun conversations here are an endless source of amusement.
    I am amused with this post.

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  11. #36
    Grizzly Fuckin Adams dhuze's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Quote Originally Posted by bassomatic View Post
    There's a reason that the branches in the military don't just hand untrained recruits a weapon and tell them to carry it whenever they want and to defend themselves with it however they see fit..... but I'm sure someone here would label that a "gun grab" or an infringement of the recruit's "liberty". The gun conversations here are an endless source of amusement.
    Oh My God Yes! And "common sense gun safety" and "universal background checks" and "Military Grade" whatevers and high capacity killing machines oh, and the "Shoulder thing that goes up." Don't forget "the shoulder thing that goes up" . We need more of these and less of the others because scary.

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  12. #37
    is not wearing pants Point37's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    just the fact that there are a lot of guns in the US is enough to make criminals think twice about going crazy

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  13. #38
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    The more I hear peoples thoughts...The more I read the news...The more convinced I am that almost no one sees the political trickery that's going on with the gun debate right now.

    The democrats draft a bill that could never pass through the senate because it isn't concurrent with federal law. The republicans take that same bill and tweak it so it is in line with federal law...Then the democrats shoot it down.

    If the democrats cared about gun control, they would have voted for the republican version of the bill. All this time they've been pleading to do "something...anything" and claiming the republicans were the problem. Now the republicans come through by giving them the chance to do "something" and they vote against it.

    Let me sum it up...There's an election coming. The democrats don't want to vote any gun legislation through because they want to lead the people to believe that when the republicans are in office nothing gets done. That's why they didn't vote for a small but reasonable step in the direction of gun control. That's also why they drafted a bill that couldn't be passed.

    Am I the only one who is getting this? There have been several articles explaining it in the mainstream media, yet I haven't talked to one person who understands this.

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  14. #39
    Your Father csmutty's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    The more I hear peoples thoughts...The more I read the news...The more convinced I am that almost no one sees the political trickery that's going on with the gun debate right now.

    The democrats draft a bill that could never pass through the senate because it isn't concurrent with federal law. The republicans take that same bill and tweak it so it is in line with federal law...Then the democrats shoot it down.

    If the democrats cared about gun control, they would have voted for the republican version of the bill. All this time they've been pleading to do "something...anything" and claiming the republicans were the problem. Now the republicans come through by giving them the chance to do "something" and they vote against it.

    Let me sum it up...There's an election coming. The democrats don't want to vote any gun legislation through because they want to lead the people to believe that when the republicans are in office nothing gets done. That's why they didn't vote for a small but reasonable step in the direction of gun control. That's also why they drafted a bill that couldn't be passed.

    Am I the only one who is getting this? There have been several articles explaining it in the mainstream media, yet I haven't talked to one person who understands this.
    Sounds about right. Sounds like something DucDave would blindly endorse and defend...

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  15. #40
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Let's also not forget that for a considerable time there was a democratic majority in both houses of the legislature, as well as a democratic president.

    There were no gun restrictions passed. Why not?

    Of course it's posturing. Never let a crisis go to waste.

    The counter proposal with the "sit-in" was that the rule makers were violating the house rules so that they could pass some rules that they expected criminals to follow. Yeah, that's it.

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  16. #41
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    The more I hear peoples thoughts...The more I read the news...The more convinced I am that almost no one sees the political trickery that's going on with the gun debate right now.

    The democrats draft a bill that could never pass through the senate because it isn't concurrent with federal law. The republicans take that same bill and tweak it so it is in line with federal law...Then the democrats shoot it down.

    If the democrats cared about gun control, they would have voted for the republican version of the bill. All this time they've been pleading to do "something...anything" and claiming the republicans were the problem. Now the republicans come through by giving them the chance to do "something" and they vote against it.

    Let me sum it up...There's an election coming. The democrats don't want to vote any gun legislation through because they want to lead the people to believe that when the republicans are in office nothing gets done. That's why they didn't vote for a small but reasonable step in the direction of gun control. That's also why they drafted a bill that couldn't be passed.

    Am I the only one who is getting this? There have been several articles explaining it in the mainstream media, yet I haven't talked to one person who understands this.
    There are a ton of people who get that. We're called domestic terrorists worshipping at the altar of the NRA if we call them out at stuff like that. Cuz guns!!!!!! Common sense! 90%!!!! No one needs a!!!!! Derp............

    Seriously, I had one guy call me a murderer who shouldn't be allowed to breathe air because I pointed this very thing out to him.......

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    Last edited by e30addict; 06-27-16 at 04:11 PM.
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  17. #42
    Senior Member AEG's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Just leave it here, enjoy ...

    The Gun Control Song - YouTube

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  18. #43
    Lifer Tekime's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Kinda like how the 4th ammendment shriveled and is now on it'so deathbed after 9/11 and everyone ran to the government to keep them safe from terrorists. How's that working out in the long run?

    We gave up a lot as a country after that and are arguably worse off than we were before.

    We don't need to keep making that same mistake over and over again.
    What 4th amendment? RIP

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  19. #44
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    Am I the only one who is getting this? There have been several articles explaining it in the mainstream media, yet I haven't talked to one person who understands this.
    I'm with you except that my read on the Republican proposal was that it would-in my opinion-never hold up in court.
    ...the attorney general would be empowered to block roughly 3,000 suspected terrorists who are on the no-fly list or selectee list from purchasing firearms...
    Last I checked the 2nd amendment says "shall not be infringed". Not "except those assholes the DoJ says seem shifty". Like it or not, we cannot-should not deny rights to people who we think maybe someday might commit a crime. That's an unacceptable slippery slope.
    Which rights are next on the chopping block? And which appointed bureaucrat gets to make the call on that one?
    Are the bill of right subject to a popularity contest? Subject to forfeiture if I travel to the wrong country?
    It's all bullshit. Make believe safety by way of low-rent diner theater.

    The republican party has lost its way.

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    Last edited by nhbubba; 06-28-16 at 08:43 AM.

  20. #45
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    The Republican proposal still had too much guilty until proven innocent in it. The left really doesn't give a shit about that part though. The point still stands that if the left really cared about gun control as much as as they claim they would (should) have jumped on making it happen.

    Instead they're using this as a wedge issue and playing grandstanding games to distract us from the real conversation we should be having during an election year.

    In reality, this whole gun violence thing is a drop in the bucket compared to the other issues we face as a country. Anybody with a brain realizes that. Sadly, those types of people disappear more and more every day.

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  21. #46
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Gun control, abortion, immigration, all shiny objects to distract the mass of cats we have running around. Exactly what the overlords want.

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  22. #47
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    ...really cared about gun control as much as as they claim they would (should) have jumped on making it happen.

    Instead they're using this as a wedge issue and playing grandstanding games to distract us from the real conversation we should be having during an election year.
    This is the part I agree entirely with. I just don't agree with any suggestion that the republican proposal was either a good idea or made any fucking sense.
    I'm glad the dems voted it down. Although not for the reasons they did.

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  23. #48
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Now did the framers call the first ten amendments the bill of changeable privileges, or the bill of RIGHTS? whether you agree or disagree, they were careful in their wording in a time when words truly had meaning, and the vast majority of their late 18th century thinking has stood the test of time.

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  24. #49
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Initially the framers didn't believe that the bill of rights was even necessary.
    It wasn't until they shopped the constitution around to the states that it was even agreed they had to write these things down.
    They believed them to be so basic as to not need to be written initially.

    The constitution, as written, limited the federal governments powers to those that were granted in the document itself, everything else was assumed to not belong to the federal government (and therefore belonged to individuals or states).

    And...

    Some constitutions have a "clearer" explanation of what the right to bear arms means...

    [Art.] 2-a. [The Bearing of Arms.] All persons have the right to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves, their families, their property and the state.

    Section 16. To keep and bear arms. Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned.

    Article 16. [Right to bear arms; standing armies; military power subordinate to civil]

    That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State--and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power.

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    Last edited by jasnmar; 06-28-16 at 10:07 AM.

  25. #50
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: National Full Carry Permit

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    Initially the framers didn't believe that the bill of rights was even necessary.


    Someone, somewhere will find something that suggests that wasn't the intent or some such.
    But it doesn't even matter. It's there in black and white. At this point I'm reduced to "repeal the 2nd amendment or shut the hell up". I give fewer fucks about this every day.

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