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Obama 4 more years

  1. #251
    Super Stealth. D.Brown's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years


    I've never been a political person, but after reading this entire thread, my knowledge hasn't increased any on the subject haha. All I know is that if Obama threatens to cutback on defense plants I'm screwed.

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  2. #252
    Lifer Stromper's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Ad hominem attacks are the fall back from dogma

    Most lawyers and minor beuaracrats don't understand wealth generation.

    They truly believe you get money from TAKING it from other people. Zero Sum Gain

    The truth is producing wealth and then trading with another person so that both are wealthier for the exchange. A true gain for both. An increased sum

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    Last edited by Stromper; 08-23-12 at 03:39 PM.
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  3. #253
    Just Registered Quigs's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    If you go back and examine responses and such in this thread I can't help but notice that for the most part the liberals (TheIglu not included. He didn't even slant his answers. He gotten my respect) simply never answer questions. When cornered they turn to name calling, insults, avoiding answering by just going into attack, and even outright lies. Look back and check for yourself. Please don't take my word for it. Take a few minutes. Reread the thread. Make up your own mind. Do the conservatives give answers when asked a question? Do they liberals do the same? If you do see the disparency maybe ask yourself why?
    Because people who are hard leaning to either side post up loaded questions from their favorite uber-wing blog, and generally most people who aren't die-hard don't want to bother answering.

    When you say "the Liberals" as though anyone who doesn't want to vote for Romney is Keith Olbermann, it's just like a liberal assuming that everyone that doesn't like Obama is Rush Limbaugh. To me, and no offense meant, that puts you in the "This guy is too far right for me to bother answering" category.

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  4. #254
    Life is good! gadget's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromper View Post
    creating and then trading with another person so that both are wealthier for the exchange. A true gain for both. An increased sum..
    fixed...
    This is the ideal...
    It is also one of the causes for inflation.

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  5. #255
    Lifer Stromper's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    NO

    If you create and exchange wealth there is not inflation only increased wealth

    Inflation is when the useless non contributors are over paid for their perhaps even NEGATIVE contribution then the actual wealth is LESS and the money is worth much less.

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    The calculus of hate

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  6. #256
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Inflation is caused when someone decides to charge more and has the market power to make it stick.

    Competition can regulate inflation by weakening the market power of a competitor.

    Government can cause inflation by enacting legislation that increase costs. environmental regulations, minimum wages and workplace safety laws all cause inflation by raising productions costs. (some of these things are socially desirable, but that is another discussion)

    I'm not sur ei understand what is meant by trading that increase both parties' wealth. If I buy food, the seller makes a profit and their wealth goes up. My wealth goes down.

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  7. #257
    Lifer joeswamp's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    I'm not sur ei understand what is meant by trading that increase both parties' wealth. If I buy food, the seller makes a profit and their wealth goes up. My wealth goes down.
    The wealth is really created by the growing of the food. As more and more stuff is made that can be exchanged for money, wealth is created.

    Whether or not this is inflationary or deflationary depends on the supply of money. As more and more stuff is made, you need more money to pay for it all, otherwise you have deflation (more stuff plus same amount of total money equals lower price per item of stuff).

    Deflation stifles an economy because when stuff gets cheaper nobody buys anything -- they wait for the price to go down further. This is the basic reason why something like the gold standard is a really bad idea, it causes unnecessary deflationary periods and limits economic growth, often at the worst time.

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  8. #258
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  9. #259
    Member gtutunjian's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyO View Post
    It's cruel and highly unusual punishment to make me watch Dick Nixon while eating dinner (even after several very good beers.) When his stated economic policy failed, his successor, (briefly) President Ford, instituted the Whip Inflation Now (WIN) Program with free WIN buttons available at Park Street Station amongst other centers of commerce. That went nowhere. Then President Carter instituted Wage Control Guidelines that no one liked. The next act, President Reagan, made us feel good with smoke and mirrors: What can I say, I like a woman in red (even if she relies on an astrologer a little too much.) I'm a sucker for jelly beans too especially in glass jars. Star Wars and Brilliant Pebbles employed many people I subsequently met and worked with. Every President since Nixon has tried to make the economy stand up and do tricks and with the exception of Bill Clinton's Internet Bubble (boom-->bust) it seems never to work.

    It's tough to tweak the economy and make it work for the rest of us. Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, and Conservatives: they all failed at it. Other than coming out of WWII close to 100% employment and focused on averting the subversion of the industrialized world to Axis Powers (or was it Austin Powers) we could not make it happen again.

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    Last edited by gtutunjian; 08-24-12 at 09:20 PM.
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  10. #260
    Lifer Stromper's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Yeah I have the rag on for this but 99% of what Lawyers do cause both wealth destruction and worse drive away future wealth creation. Almost all of those involved in anyway with government wake of everyday involved in wealth destruction or worse future wealth production eliminated.

    We would already be dead except that the micro processor revolution happened when we needed it and created a new wealth process.

    Those that come from higher education and then worse go into the legal or government are completely unaware of how a country and its economy actually functions.

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    The calculus of hate

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    It is not that I succeed it is that you fail
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  11. #261
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Shakespeare had it right, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."

    As someone who has spent 10 years in higher Ed after a career in real businesses, you couldn't be more right. It is astonishing how clueless the academics are with respect to the way the world functions.

    They have been living in virtual reality long before computers were invented.

    We all accept that higher Ed is biased way way to the left. Some of it is group think, some is excessive political correctness, but I think a lot of it is lack of real experience in the world.

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  12. #262

    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Shakespeare had it right, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."

    As someone who has spent 10 years in higher Ed after a career in real businesses, you couldn't be more right. It is astonishing how clueless the academics are with respect to the way the world functions.

    They have been living in virtual reality long before computers were invented.

    We all accept that higher Ed is biased way way to the left. Some of it is group think, some is excessive political correctness, but I think a lot of it is lack of real experience in the world.
    Keep it on topic. Liarwatha is insignificant.

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  13. #263
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Keep it on topic. Liarwatha is insignificant.
    There's a topic?

    Sorry, I thought it was just a thread for posting stuff that the partisan combatants have already posted a hundred times.

    I didn't mean to offend the topic police.

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  14. #264
    Just Registered ThisBitch's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    I absolutely love when people complain that there are more people on foodstamps now than in 2007.


    It's so crazy to think that a massive recession and unemployment could increase the number of people on foodstamps!

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  15. #265
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by ThisBitch View Post
    I absolutely love when people complain that there are more people on foodstamps now than in 2007.


    It's so crazy to think that a massive recession and unemployment could increase the number of people on foodstamps!
    Shhhh. Rational thought has no business here!

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  16. #266

    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by ThisBitch View Post
    I absolutely love when people complain that there are more people on foodstamps now than in 2007.


    It's so crazy to think that a massive recession and unemployment could increase the number of people on foodstamps!

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  17. #267
    Lifer Stromper's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Yes food stamps do help the Alcohol and tobacco industries during this time of need.

    It is a necessary thing but it is abused

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    The calculus of hate

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    It is not that I succeed it is that you fail
    It is not that I should live it is that you should die

  18. #268
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromper View Post
    Yes food stamps do help the Alcohol and tobacco industries during this time of need.
    Buy tobacco stocks and make your money back

    May I suggest looking at Altria (MO). They own the Marlboro brand, are big in smokeless tobacco and a portion of SAB Miller as well. Nice, juicy dividend too. It had a pretty sweet ride the last few years, though buying in now might not be the smartest thing.

    Instead of bitching about where your money is going why not capitalize on it on the back side of things? Or is that asking for too deep a thought?

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    Last edited by e30addict; 08-26-12 at 10:00 PM.
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  19. #269
    Senior Member catahoulabuldog's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Cant we just hug it out?

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  20. #270
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    The RNC and the Romney campaign have proposed new rules for delegates that would stifle dissent, take power from the state primaries and hand it to the national party, and allow the RNC itself to make rule changes between conventions.

    On top of cheating Ron Paul out of his earned place on the convention ballots and his earned speaking position at the convention this time around, they want to make sure no one gets to challenge whoever the RNC decides is their pick, ever again.

    They apparently don't even care about *looking* ethical anymore. They'll openly cheat and steal to get their coronation of their chosen boy done without any chance of it being "spoiled" by any dissent, competition, or integrity.

    They've tipped their hand completely, and revealed corruption just as deep as the Democratic Party.

    Fuck 'em. This level of corruption is past remediation. Even if they win the election, and do us all the great service of repealing ObamaCare, they still will not ever get my vote.

    It's not even worth sending them a message by writing in Ron Paul any more; they can't hear it and don't care. Dr. Paul's hope of trying to reform the party from within is shown to be unrealistic.

    Gary Johnson gets my vote now.

    (But hooray for Dr. Paul for standing for ethics yet again): Ron Paul on Romney: ‘I don’t fully endorse him for president’ | The Ticket - Yahoo! News
    TAMPA--Mitt Romney's presidential campaign gave Texas Rep. Ron Paul a chance to speak at the Republican National Convention, but he declined due to the conditions of the offer, the New York Times reports:

    Mr. Paul, in an interview, said convention planners had offered him an opportunity to speak under two conditions: that he deliver remarks vetted by the Romney campaign, and that he give a full-fledged endorsement of Mr. Romney. He declined. "It wouldn't be my speech," Mr. Paul said. "That would undo everything I've done in the last 30 years. I don't fully endorse him for president."

    Republicans plan to show a tribute video honoring the retiring libertarian politician Tuesday at the convention. Paul is also holding his own rally nearby on Sunday afternoon.
    PhilB

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  21. #271
    Member gtutunjian's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    The RNC and the Romney campaign have proposed new rules for delegates that would stifle dissent, take power from the state primaries and hand it to the national party, and allow the RNC itself to make rule changes between conventions.
    This election cycle is last call for Mitt IMHO, so if he falters or someone speaks out or is off script, game over. Hence the full court press. They're showing a video tribute to Ron Paul? The RNC works in mysterious ways. Fear isn't a selling point.

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  22. #272

    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Were all boarded up here in Worcester and there is no Hurricane threat. All I wish for is a Bush recession. This recovery sucks.

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  23. #273
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Were all boarded up here in Worcester and there is no Hurricane threat. All I wish for is a Bush recession. This recovery sucks.
    Worcester?

    So you are saying it hasn't changed at all.

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  24. #274

    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Worcester?

    So you are saying it hasn't changed at all.
    Lotta new business actually. Pawn shops, cheque cashing, travel agencies, money gram joints, etc. The metal salvage industry is booming.So ain't the "will work for food" business. Even the rich sections are joining in the fun. Gone are the Italian markets. They been replaced with Price Rite.....It would be nice if they put deposits on plastic nips. A guy could get rich picking them up. The reality agents brag about "convenient location" when describing properties.I actually saw a bumper sticker that said We Are Better Than Lawrence. We like to refer to our town as Kennedy's Pride & Joy.

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  25. #275
    Lifetime Motorcyclist Woodcraft's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    I found it a funny coincidence that Nixon was brought up in this discussion...only because I had just read an article that made a reference to him. Makes for interesting discussion....I'm still digesting it. This should stir up the pot a bit.......


    By: Peter Schiff

    Tuesday, August 28, 2012

    As Republicans convene in Tampa to nominate Mitt Romney and hammer out their party platform, one of the planks that could attract the most attention is the Party's official position on the gold standard. As it is now being considered, the platform stops short of recommending a return to the gold standard, but does advocate a commission to consider the possibility. However, judging by the reaction with which many Republicans have greeted the idea, one would think that the platform might as well have called for the return of slavery.

    The fact that so many supposed conservatives liken a belief in a gold standard as the monetary equivalent of membership in the Flat Earth Society shows just how far the American public has come from a true understanding of how money works within an economy. But, if there were a parallel to be made between gold enthusiasts and flat earthers, then it should strike many as curious that the world's top central bankers, who can be seen as the equivalent to the most advanced astronomers, continue to hold so much gold in their vaults. If gold were so obsolete, why would these bankers hedge their positions?

    The general idea among most economists is that gold would be a step backward for our modern monetary system -- the equivalent of trading in an automobile for a horse and buggy. However, paper money is not new. It's been around for centuries, and has been tried many times, on many continents. But every time it has been used, it has led ultimately to economic disaster.

    At the time of America's founding, the uses and abuses of paper money were well understood. The Founding Fathers could have empowered the Federal Government to print paper money, a power enjoyed by the Continental Congress under the Articles of Confederation. However, the Constitution represented an improvement on that system. The framers, having just experienced the horrors of the Continental currency (which had been used to finance the War of Independence) opted to limit Federal monetary powers to coining money, which for legal tender purposes they defined as gold and silver.

    As a result of that wise choice, our national economy thrived, and eventually became the richest on earth. In contrast, since the time that the standard was abandoned in 1971, America has become the world's largest debtor nation and is now teetering on the brink of financial ruin. It's ironic that gold standard critics look back to Nixon's decision to close the gold window as proof that the standard does not work. In reality, it was precisely because the gold standard was working so well that Nixon felt he had no choice but to abandon it.

    In 1971, adherence to the gold standard meant the Nixon administration faced a politically difficult decision. Big increases in government spending associated with the Great Society programs, the war on poverty, the Vietnam War, and the Space Race, resulted in large deficits (by 1971 standards of course). This led the government to print lots of money, thereby hitting Americans with large doses of inflation. As a result, general prices had by then tripled from the levels seen in 1932. But the price of gold had been held at 35 dollars per ounce. This led America's foreign creditors to exchange their paper dollars for gold (It was illegal for American citizens to do likewise). This created a drain on our gold reserves, and if something were not done, it was likely that the U.S. would lose all of its reserves.

    Staying on the gold standard left the government with only two options. One was to devalue the dollar and raise the price of gold consistent with the increase in the CPI. That would have required a gold price of over 100 dollars per ounce. Alternatively, the government could have removed the excess dollars from circulation, bringing consumer prices back in line with 35 dollar gold. In other words, the choice was devaluation or deflation. Neither was politically appealing, and both would have brought deficit spending to a halt.

    The gold standard forced the government to responsibly confront irresponsible fiscal policy. At first Nixon tried devaluation, but the amounts were far too small to stop the gold drain. As an escape hatch, he instead abandoned the gold standard (although he said that the move was temporary). Without this "relic", government could continue to finance its spending with ever larger deficits without losing any more gold. So instead of devaluation or deflation, we chose inflation instead. Many consider the impossibility of running perpetual deficits under the gold standard as proof of its unsuitability to the modern economy. As I see it, this is precisely why the gold standard is so desirable and so badly needed today.

    Proponents of the centrally planned pump-priming, deficit-spending welfare state see the gold standard as the enemy of a healthy economy. However, if you believe in individual liberty and limited government, then the gold standard is your best ally. Had Nixon made a more responsible decision, the initial pain might have been worse, but we would have ended the decade in much better shape. And had we stayed that course, our nation would be far wealthier today as a result. We would not have been enabled to bleed away our wealth through two generations of deficit spending.

    Many people also look badly on the gold standard because it prevents central banks from using monetary policy to manage the economy. This, of course, may be its greatest attribute. Under a gold standard, the free market determines money supply and interest rates. Under our current system of paper money a few politically connected bankers make those determinations. The results have been disastrous, with the recent housing bubble and financial crisis being just the latest iterations.

    In a market economy, prices must be discovered by supply and demand. Interest rates, which can be described as the price of money, are arguably the most important prices of all. The only way to get it right is to let the market do its work. Empowering politically motivated central bankers to fix the price instead is a recipe for disaster. Unfortunately, we have now all had a good taste, and a return to the gold standard is the only way to refresh the palate. I hope the Republicans have the stomach to see it through.

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