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Obama 4 more years

  1. #301
    Member gtutunjian's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years


    Quote Originally Posted by gadget View Post
    - The metals are radioactive. The jewels are not.
    btw it is now cheaper to make rubies in a lab and the only way to tell the difference is by a trace additive that the lab use just so you can tell them from mined rubies. It is only a matter of time before these things are more common place.

    - I expect that when the process is finally developed to create large quantities of gold cheaper than mining, you will see the complete shutdown of all commercial gold mining...but we will see.

    - De Beers is in South Africa...not Amsterdam... and it is well known that they set and fix the price for diamonds by carefully managing their monopoly of the market.



    yes, printing money is ok...everyone does it...and has been doing it many many years...

    and just so we're clear on something...our present economic woes have nothing to do with the gold standard, in fact if we were on the gold standard, we would be in a much worse place right now.
    DeBeers home office is in London (UK). They operate mines in several African countries in addition to South Africa (which is the one always mentioned in the media.) Debeers also operates mines in Canada. (Scroll to the bottom of that Debeers page to see their home office data.)

    I'm not a fan of the gold standard, either. We can be clear (and possibly agree) on that, perhaps.

    Let's wager, eh!? I wager a case of your favorite beer (or $100, which ever you prefer) that before jewels or other commodities become the source of barter between professionals (like the clerk at Stop & Shop who took my plastic just now and me, or the dealer from whom I purchased my bike in May) one or more of the following will have to occurred:
    1. Anarchy will reign in the U.S. (there's a song in there somethere I think) at least in the major cities (there's precedent, just not enough: anarchy or precedent.) One could say The American Revolution was a form of anarchy (since they fought according to their own rules) but that doesn't count
    2. The Internet Will Be Down (and I'm referring to the public Internet)
    3. Clean water will be rationed
    4. Public schools will be closed (and not just for the summer)
    5. Food will be rationed

    I think our present economic woes can be traced back to the late 70's (but that's me.) I also think that just because we can do something, that doesn't imply it will become common (as in make mass quantities of rubies of appreciable value.) I love the science, but the economics will always dictate that we use currency with some person's face on it as homage to the nation, the union or some other form of community/agreement/oppression/...

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  2. #302
    Member gtutunjian's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Falko View Post
    Fort Knox is empty...
    ...of gold? The question gets asked. It's held lots of other things in addition to gold. I'm betting it's still there.

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  3. #303
    Life is good! gadget's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by gtutunjian View Post
    DeBeers home office is in London (UK). They operate mines in several African countries in addition to South Africa (which is the one always mentioned in the media.) Debeers also operates mines in Canada. (Scroll to the bottom of that Debeers page to see their home office data.)

    I'm not a fan of the gold standard, either. We can be clear (and possibly agree) on that, perhaps.

    Let's wager, eh!? I wager a case of your favorite beer (or $100, which ever you prefer) that before jewels or other commodities become the source of barter between professionals (like the clerk at Stop & Shop who took my plastic just now and me, or the dealer from whom I purchased my bike in May) one or more of the following will have to occurred:
    1. Anarchy will reign in the U.S. (there's a song in there somethere I think) at least in the major cities (there's precedent, just not enough: anarchy or precedent.) One could say The American Revolution was a form of anarchy (since they fought according to their own rules) but that doesn't count
    2. The Internet Will Be Down (and I'm referring to the public Internet)
    3. Clean water will be rationed
    4. Public schools will be closed (and not just for the summer)
    5. Food will be rationed

    I think our present economic woes can be traced back to the late 70's (but that's me.) I also think that just because we can do something, that doesn't imply it will become common (as in make mass quantities of rubies of appreciable value.) I love the science, but the economics will always dictate that we use currency with some person's face on it as homage to the nation, the union or some other form of community/agreement/oppression/...
    Where does Amsterdam and Lady Gaga come into this, again?
    Who are you offering to bet with? It seems as if your posts are in agreement with mine.

    you have me completely confused...not that it matters much

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  4. #304

    Re: Obama 4 more years

    "President Obama promised to slow the rise of the oceans and heal the planet."
    "My promise is to help you and your family"
    "You know somethings wrong with the job he's done when the best feeling you had was the day you voted for him"
    "A recession is when you lose your job, a recovery is when Barrack Obama loses his"

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  5. #305
    Member gtutunjian's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by gadget View Post
    Where does Amsterdam and Lady Gaga come into this, again?
    Who are you offering to bet with? It seems as if your posts are in agreement with mine.

    you have me completely confused...not that it matters much
    Poor day in the cubicle for me...sorry for the confusion, and yes, I think we do agree (always matters when more than one person holds the same idea or thought...revolutions start that way, bands or both.)

    If you're at European Motorcycle Day, maybe we can compare our economic theories and models...plus check out the bikes.

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  6. #306
    Just Registered ThisBitch's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by oVTo View Post
    What are the benefits of changing the country back to the gold standard?

    What are the drawbacks?

    The Swiss might be one of the few countries with enough gold reserves to switch to the gold standard without severely contracting their money supply. They're usually thought of as a conservative, financially shrewd country. Yet, they don't use the gold standard. Why not?

    How many countries are on the gold standard, and how many are not? When did other countries leave the gold standard? Have countries switched back and forth between the two models? Why did they change? What happened to their economies before and after they changed? Why did they switch? How did it affect the countries still on the gold standard?

    The U.S. has had a endless series of recessions and depressions (business cycles) since it was founded. The two longest and most severe (1870s and 1930s) occurred while we used the gold standard. For the first half of the 20th century (under the gold standard), recessions averaged 18 months and expansions 35, and they averaged a 20% drop in business activity. Since the end of WWII (most of which is off the gold standard) recessions average 10 months and expansions average 57 months, and only the most recent recession was greater than a 5% drop (at 5.1%). Is it possible that manipulating the money supply might be a extremely valuable tool for managing a business cycle?

    What would happen if we switched to the gold standard? How much would we have to contract our money supply? How would we contract it? How would the gold standard affect interest rates, GDP, and GDP growth? Prices? Incomes? Imports and Exports? Unemployment? Wages? Does a relatively high unemployment rate make this a particularly good time or bad time to switch? Why?

    What is the problem that changing to the gold standard would address? Are there any other ways that problem could be tackled? What are the strengths and weaknesses of each of the alternatives?

    If you can't answer at least most of these questions, then you might just be parroting a position that appeals to you emotionally. No problem, we all do that at times. But something as dramatic as changing the foundation of a country's economic model should never be an emotional decision.

    End of rant? I'm going back to the chipped rims thread to relax.
    I can answer a majority of these and with research all. Although I don't know that returning to the gold standard is a possibility, fiat currency is not now, nor has it ever been, the path to a successful society. Even if I were in favor of a fiat currency, I sure as shit wouldn't be in favor of a privately held, nontransparent bank being the only authority that can legally print the tender of my country, only to loan it to my government at interest, automatically devaluing that dollar and causing inflation, only so that the government can charge me a tax on an imaginary increase in value of my house, car, salary, etc. The government has used scare tactics and orchestrated crises to erode your rights, take your money and gobble up as much power as it can. Monetary policy is a drop in a fucking black hole.

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    Last edited by ThisBitch; 08-31-12 at 04:50 PM.
    Original

  7. #307
    Lifer Stromper's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Gold is a great material

    Most Jewels are just pebbles though diamonds are good for cutting

    The material value is still based upon others prizing it so not far from money.

    If you traveled back 10,000 years are smart ancestors would pick stainless steel over the gold.

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  8. #308
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Yer right. I am way too much of a simpleton to answer all of those questions.

    But I can read this chart:



    Tell me, why would converting to the 'gold standard' hurt so badly? Is it related to that chart? I think it is.
    Attachment 31306
    This is a better chart - it's a debt to Gross Domestic Product chart. The Debt to GDP ratio is more important than just debt. A $1Trillion economy with $1Trillion debt is a lot worse off than a $10Trillion economy with a $1Trillion debt. The debt to GDP sucks, but it is much lower than immediately after WWII. We were able to expand GDP and cut war spending to bring the debt to a more manageable level. Growing GDP and cutting spending is a lot more difficult now than it was then for a number of reasons.

    The gold standard is related to both charts, and to about 10,000 other charts. My point is that if you look at just one thing and make a major change, the odds are likely that your solution will be worse than the original problem.

    My opinion is that if you switch to the gold standard when you have a lot of debt ($16T), a high trade deficit (>$500B), high unemployment (8%), and slow growth even with low interest rates will increase the debt, not decrease it. The short answer is that I don't believe we can switch to the gold standard without significantly increasing both interest rates and the unemployment rate, and those would be a very dangerous for a lot of reasons and could result in increasing the debt, not decreasing it. The long answer would take more than I feel like writing, and I don't expect to change anyone else's opinion so it's not worth the effort.

    I think we agree the deficit is a problem, but we probably don't agree on how to solve that problem.

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    Last edited by oVTo; 08-31-12 at 05:25 PM. Reason: too many charts
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  9. #309
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by ThisBitch View Post
    I can answer a majority of these and with research all. Although I don't know that returning to the gold standard is a possibility, fiat currency is not now, nor has it ever been, the path to a successful society. Even if I were in favor of a fiat currency, I sure as shit wouldn't be in favor of a privately held, nontransparent bank being the only authority that can legally print the tender of my country, only to loan it to my government at interest, automatically devaluing that dollar and causing inflation, only so that the government can charge me a tax on an imaginary increase in value of my house, car, salary, etc. The government has used scare tactics and orchestrated crises to erode your rights, take your money and gobble up as much power as it can. Monetary policy is a drop in a fucking black hole.

    I knew that you could. We probably disagree more on monetary policy than we agree on it, but I respect your opinions. I agree 100% with you on how important it is to fix the lack of transparency in the banking system. Regular Fed audits are just the beginning of what needs to be done on that front.

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    DanG
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  10. #310
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by gadget View Post
    - The metals are radioactive. The jewels are not.
    btw it is now cheaper to make rubies in a lab and the only way to tell the difference is by a trace additive that the lab use just so you can tell them from mined rubies. It is only a matter of time before these things are more common place.

    - I expect that when the process is finally developed to create large quantities of gold cheaper than mining, you will see the complete shutdown of all commercial gold mining...but we will see.

    - De Beers is in South Africa...not Amsterdam... and it is well known that they set and fix the price for diamonds by carefully managing their monopoly of the market.

    yes, printing money is ok...everyone does it...and has been doing it many many years...

    and just so we're clear on something...our present economic woes have nothing to do with the gold standard, in fact if we were on the gold standard, we would be in a much worse place right now.
    Making gems put of existing elements is WAY different (and easier) than making elements. NO ONE is proposing a diamond or ruby standard. The fact that everyone is printing money and everyone is going down the tubes is NOT a coincidence. Our economic woes have a hell of a lot to do with fiat money and the practices of government inflation, manipulation, devaluation. If we had not left the gold standard we would never have gotten here -- all governments have gone to fiat money because that removes a major obstacle to government growth and irresponsibility. And governments hate being limited or being held responsible.

    But since you favor government growth and irresponsiblity, it's no wonder you're in favor of a "spend until you collapse" policy. Whoopee.

    PhilB

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    Last edited by PhilB; 08-31-12 at 08:38 PM.
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  11. #311
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    The older I become, the more that I suspect that democracy in the West is just smoke and mirrors.
    Ron Paul won, GOP??
    Get ready for Obamney

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  12. #312
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Sorry that chart is the
    War on poverty, EPA, OSHA and a few wars

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  13. #313
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    I've never really understood the "go back to the gold standard" arguments. There are some pretty huge advantages to controlling the money supply, most recently the big printing that happened in the last few years. The gold bugs predicted that hyperinflation would have happened a year ago but all the mainstream economists said it was the right thing to do, and it seems to have avoided a massive liquidity trap. Had we been on the gold standard we would have stumbled right into that, with big time deflation and 20% unemployment.

    As has been pointed out, there are big risks when you peg your currency to any market driven commodity, because technology or discoveries can cause its value to change radically in unpredictable ways. IIRC Spain's economy in the 1500s was pretty much destroyed when the world supply of silver was doubled by discoveries in South America.

    The Fed's structure is admittedly kind of weird, but the one thing that's good about it is that it seems to be reasonably politically independent -- nobody is printing money for the sake of getting elected. If you gave congress the authority to print money we'd have had hyperinflation long ago. Most failures of fiat money (pretty much all I can think of) were due to the failure of this political independence.

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  14. #314
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by joeswamp View Post
    I've never really understood the "go back to the gold standard" arguments. There are some pretty huge advantages to controlling the money supply, most recently the big printing that happened in the last few years. The gold bugs predicted that hyperinflation would have happened a year ago but all the mainstream economists said it was the right thing to do, and it seems to have avoided a massive liquidity trap. Had we been on the gold standard we would have stumbled right into that, with big time deflation and 20% unemployment.

    As has been pointed out, there are big risks when you peg your currency to any market driven commodity, because technology or discoveries can cause its value to change radically in unpredictable ways. IIRC Spain's economy in the 1500s was pretty much destroyed when the world supply of silver was doubled by discoveries in South America.

    The Fed's structure is admittedly kind of weird, but the one thing that's good about it is that it seems to be reasonably politically independent -- nobody is printing money for the sake of getting elected. If you gave congress the authority to print money we'd have had hyperinflation long ago. Most failures of fiat money (pretty much all I can think of) were due to the failure of this political independence.
    There are some pretty huge advantages for governments to them being allowed to control the money supply. To the people, not so much. I'd say (to put it mildly) that we differ on the assessment of whether the "big printing that happened in the last few years" was an advantage, or even a good thing at all. When you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING. The Big Printing was instead, the application of a power shovel to the hole we already were in, just making it deeper and harder to ever get out of.

    PhilB

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    Re: Obama 4 more years


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  16. #316
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    I found this kinda interesting. http://www.isidewith.com/presidential-election-quiz

    I had a 1% spread between Obama, Romney and Johnson O_O

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  17. #317
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Obama 4 more years-310362_514313651928899_1767540166_n-jpg

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  18. #318
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    What is this horrible monstrosity? I can watch a video. I can read an article. I cannot watch an video, about reading an article, set to a drum machine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post

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  19. #319
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    I found this kinda interesting. http://www.isidewith.com/presidential-election-quiz

    I had a 1% spread between Obama, Romney and Johnson O_O
    Candidates you side with...
    91%
    MittRomney
    on economic, immigration, domestic policy, foreign policy, healthcare, and social issues
    63%
    GaryJohnson
    on economic and healthcare issues
    60%
    VirgilGoode
    on economic and social issues
    58%
    BarackObama
    on foreign policy, science, and environmental issues
    48%
    Massachusetts Voters
    on foreign policy, domestic policy, science, and environmental issues.
    53%
    American Voters
    on foreign policy, economic, domestic policy, environmental, and science issues.
    Show all candidates
    Who you side with by party...

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  20. #320
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    http://imgs.isidewith.com/results-image/94638062.jpg

    I dunno who Jill Stein is, but this is otherwise pretty accurate. Especially the big fuck you to the New Republican Party.

    I'd like to think I'm more libertarian than this indicates but I guess that's how it always goes...

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  21. #321
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Stein is the greenie.

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  22. #322
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Oh, humm. Yeah, I don't know much about the Green Party. I'm guessing they like trees and clean air and not spilling oil in the Gulf of Mexico and stuff? I mean, I like those things. I like other things too, though.

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  23. #323
    Life is good! gadget's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    John Kerry was pretty funny tonight....."Ask Osama Bin Laden if he was better off four years ago!!"

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  24. #324
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    92% democrat/obama....

    What the fuck has CA done to me...

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  25. #325
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    It's not so much that people stopped being republican, it's that the republican party did. I used to align pretty strongly republican on the economic front but the pandering to Wall Street and abandonment of any attempt at fiscal responsibility pretty much killed that.

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    Last edited by Honclfibr; 09-06-12 at 09:52 PM.

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