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Obama 4 more years

  1. #51
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    Re: Obama 4 more years


    Quote Originally Posted by SRTie4k View Post
    This implies that being a successful CEO is criminal, akin to being a pedophile. Very poor logic.


    You're right that it would be wrong to equate just ANY sucessfull CEO with a pedophile. However, if said sucessfull CEO is dodging taxes by hiding money overseas, he is in fact a criminal. Just ask the IRS.

    That was the original example given and that is what my comment pertains to. Not illogical when placed in the proper context.

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  2. #52
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    You're right that it would be wrong to equate just ANY sucessfull CEO with a pedophile. However, if said sucessfull CEO is dodging taxes by hiding money overseas, he is in fact a criminal. Just ask the IRS.

    That was the original example given and that is what my comment pertains to. Not illogical when placed in the proper context.
    There is actually nothing illegal about investing money offshore. NPR even did a segment on that fact a few weeks ago. Anyone can do the same thing in less than 30 minutes.

    Whether you think it should be illegal or not is another matter entirely.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTie4k View Post
    There is actually nothing illegal about investing money offshore. NPR even did a segment on that fact a few weeks ago. Anyone can do the same thing in less than 30 minutes.

    Whether you think it should be illegal or not is another matter entirely.
    I said hiding money offshore, not necessarily investing. There are legitimate ways to use/move money off shore and then there are shady ways.

    Just because NPR highlighted a legitimate way doesn't prove anything.

    If all the offshore action wad on the up and up, why are the Swiss bankers sweating things out right now?

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    This country rises and falls with the middle class. We are continually asked to take a larger share of the burden to fund cuts at the top for the sake of "creating jobs". It doesn't work. It doesn't trickle down, and has only given us a very skewed income inequality that allows the top percent income to grow leaps and bounds and the middle to stagnate. Tax capital gains as income, create another bracket above 250k and stop blowing up and rebuilding other countries. Use that money to fund infrastructure projects, small business tax breaks and US manufacturing incentives. Give us good paying middle class jobs with good benefits and see how much money gets spent. Drive the economy from the correct side. After that we can restructure the entitlement programs into work programs.

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    Last edited by obsolete; 08-13-12 at 02:51 PM.
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    I said hiding money offshore, not necessarily investing. There are legitimate ways to use/move money off shore and then there are shady ways.

    Just because NPR highlighted a legitimate way doesn't prove anything.

    If all the offshore action wad on the up and up, why are the Swiss bankers sweating things out right now?
    Hiding, investing, potato, potato. It's still not illegal, as shady as it may be.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46375666.../#.UCla5p1lTwM

    The only thing illegal about moving money out of the country is not informing the IRS.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTie4k View Post
    Hiding, investing, potato, potato. It's still not illegal, as shady as it may be.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46375666.../#.UCla5p1lTwM

    The only thing illegal about moving money out of the country is not informing the IRS.
    I'm confused. At first you said it's not and then your next sentence says it is.

    The Swiss are facing repercussions from both the U.S. and the EU for aiding tax evaders. It's a bit more than tomato tomatoe.

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/id...20812?irpc=932
    http://www.economist.com/node/21547229

    Sweep it under the rug all you want, there are many more people who think it's a bigger deal than you want it to be.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Avoiding taxes legally is a civic duty.

    Evading taxes illegally is a crime.

    I would be very surprised if Mitt Romney was doing anything illegal.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Avoiding taxes legally is a civic duty.

    Evading taxes illegally is a crime.

    I would be very surprised if Mitt Romney was doing anything illegal.
    Ha.

    For the record, none of what I mentioned was in relation to Romney specifically.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    I'm confused. At first you said it's not and then your next sentence says it is.

    The Swiss are facing repercussions from both the U.S. and the EU for aiding tax evaders. It's a bit more than tomato tomatoe.

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/id...20812?irpc=932
    http://www.economist.com/node/21547229

    Sweep it under the rug all you want, there are many more people who think it's a bigger deal than you want it to be.
    I think what's more important is just how little is actually hidden overseas. Looking at my previous link as well as your link shows that the US does not hide very much in foreign banks. The 4 billion that was declared between 2009 and 2011 when the IRS gave a pass to those who came forward is nothing but a drop in the bucket in the big scheme of our economy.

    I think you're blowing corruption amongst top CEOs WAY out of proportion.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTie4k View Post

    I think you're blowing corruption amongst top CEOs WAY out of proportion.
    Ironically I only used one fictional CEO in a comparison. You're the one making the leap that I was acusing all of corporate America of a giant criminal enterprise.

    I think we drifted a little off topic at this point too.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    I'm not saying take from the poor or cut them short. I'm saying address it by giving them the opprortunity to work for it.

    In the end by giving businesses a break we are not "taking from the poor" to do so. We are merely denying them the expecation to be handed what someone else has earned.

    I'm sorry but we have become a self-entitled society and thats where the problem lies. There are just too many people who expect to have something just because there are others who have it. Thats how people who preach a bitterness towards the well-off like our current president get elected.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Way back in the fifties this man Lyndon Johnson had one of his campaign bigwigs accuse his political opponent of having sex with farm animals. The campaign manager said to Johnson that the guy never did stuff like that. Johnson replied "I just want to see him deny it". Thats what the scumbag Harry Reid just did regarding Romney and taxes. Ironically from a tax cheat himself. Romney has paid more in taxes than Reid Polosi and Obama combined. Percentage wise he has given away lots to charities. Those other three? Virtually nothing.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    I am afraid that both party models and plans are based on a manufacturing/investment model.

    Spending fed money OR leaving it in the hands of the investors all have the premise that the economy will use these funds
    to invest in wealth generating operations.

    This money will NOW be invested in Chinese wealth generating operations.

    We need to roll back the EPA to some sane degree out of the hands of religious tree huger terrorists.

    Apply a tariff of some kind against the Chinese to level the field.

    I say start with $.50 a pound on every import except raw materials including fuel.
    Raise the tariff to the inflation equivalent of a dollar after 4 years and guarantee it for 20 years minimum.
    Have a return money to the USA tax holiday then Tax the snake shit out of foreign investment income.
    Yes eliminate the capital gains for USA investments

    If we continue to impair wealth generation in the USA then we HAVE to go bankrupt as wealth is consumed.
    There is NO other possible outcome. Only the length of time could be played with but the end would be unavoidable.

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    Last edited by Stromper; 08-13-12 at 07:17 PM.
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by #1 masshole View Post
    They all suck.
    Quoted for truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    I like this pick because it leaves no doubt about the differences in philosophy between the two major candidates regarding Amercans' relationship with their Government.

    November will be an important national referendum on where we want to go.
    Too late. We already had that referendum in the R primaries, and the result was that even the "conservatives" want to continue on our current path, and fail to bite the bullet or seriously address the problems. If we were to be having the real referendum on where this country goes, and how Americans relate to their government, we would have Ron Paul challenging Obama. As it stands, we're drowning in rhetoric, but only get to choose between the Red or the Blue puppet of the same lobbyists and special interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    ... There is only one thing we agree upon with regard to taxes and that is the conviction that we pay too much and someone else doesn't pay enough.
    I disagree. I have the conviction that we pay too much, and so does everyone else, there isn't anyone who doesn't pay enough, and what we need is for the bastards to stop SPENDING it like crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Never mind take them from them and give more to those who don't have it. That's not the answer and everyone should know that, even if they don't want to say it.

    How do you feel If you look at it another way. The GOP is proposing go take even more from you and give it to someone like your boss. How does it feel ? Who's redistributing the wealth now? The only really difference is no one is really giving your boss more, rather they allow him to keep more of what he has.

    On the flip side, saying that the left is going to take money from the rich and give it to the poor is a gross exaggeration of reality.

    If you really think asking people like your boss to carry a more proportionate share is penalizing them you really should do a lot more research on all the issues the country faces before you step in a voting booth. At least then you can make an educated decision instead of voting based on sound bites.
    That's a HUGE difference, both practically and ethically.

    PhilB

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    Last edited by PhilB; 08-13-12 at 07:44 PM.
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Way back in the fifties this man Lyndon Johnson had one of his campaign bigwigs accuse his political opponent of having sex with farm animals. The campaign manager said to Johnson that the guy never did stuff like that. Johnson replied "I just want to see him deny it". Thats what the scumbag Harry Reid just did regarding Romney and taxes. Ironically from a tax cheat himself. Romney has paid more in taxes than Reid Polosi and Obama combined. Percentage wise he has given away lots to charities. Those other three? Virtually nothing.
    Didn't mittens pay something around a 15% tax rate? Pretty sure that's a lot less than what most of us paid.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    I'm not saying take from the poor or cut them short. I'm saying address it by giving them the opprortunity to work for it.
    Don't disagree much there.

    In the end by giving businesses a break we are not "taking from the poor" to do so. We are merely denying them the expecation to be handed what someone else has earned.
    You're right. By giving the businesses a break you're not taking all that much from the poor, you're taking it from yourself! You do realize that you can have a much fairer tax system without also increasing the handouts to the poor right? They are two seperate issues that everyone wants to lump together to simplify things and get more people on "their" side.

    I'm sorry but we have become a self-entitled society and thats where the problem lies. There are just too many people who expect to have something just because there are others who have it. Thats how people who preach a bitterness towards the well-off like our current president get elected.
    Agreed in a lot of ways. Personally, I'm only bitter towards the well-off, as you put it, not because of what they have, but because they want to make me to carry a bigger load so they can carry a lighter one. Fuck that. I'll pull my weight, you pull yours. Don't ask me to carry part of yours as well. I don't want to subsidize anyone's lifestyle, whether they are rich OR poor. Like's been said, there is going to have to be a compromise one way or another. How do you want your wallet affected? One candidate will help you keep more of your money and in return some of the "poor" will also be the beneficiary to some degree. The other candidate will take more of your money and give to wealthy; eventually some of that may trickle down as you hope and make your life better. Make no mistake, you're going to pay, we all have to, nothings free. How do you prefer your poison?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    That's a HUGE difference, both practically and ethically.

    PhilB
    Not sure where you're going with that. Practically there's a difference, sure. Ethically, I'm not really sure. Depends on how you view it.

    Disregarding the "handouts" to the poor, which is pretty much a seperate issue, I view this as the left wants to help alleviate the middle class tax burden and ask the wealthy to pay a fairer share. I don't see that as ethically wrong.

    The right wants to ease the burden on the wealthy and increase the burden on the middle class. In a consumer driven economy, mostly by the middle class, how does squeezing them help generate economic growth? I see that as a bigger issue. I think it's bullshit that if you make life easier for the job creators the jobs will magically appear and all will be sangri la again. They're gonna take the money and do whatever the fuck they were going to do anyway. Anything else is a line they want to jam down people's throats.

    Want proof? Look at the banking industry. The whole premise behind the bailout was to ease the strain on them so they would lend to people again which in turn would help drive the recovery. I see a whole lot of banks sitting on a fat stack of cash, posting some pretty good results and not lending jack shit to people.

    Everyone loves to use housing #'s as an indicator of our economic health. Most of America needs to borrow money to buy a house. If the banks aren't lending, how can someone expect this metric to actually improve?

    Personal example; I'm an 805 credit score with 50% equity in my property and no other debt; never missed a payment in my life. Obtaining an equity line of credit that would dilute my equity by roughly 10% took an act of God. If the banks don't want to lend money to someone like me who the hell are they lending it to?

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    Last edited by e30addict; 08-13-12 at 09:03 PM.
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Interesting for the "spending hawks".

    Obama 4 more years-mw-ar658_spendi_20120521163312_me-jpg

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...-barack-obama/

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Does your bitterness toward the well off discriminate in any way based on how they got there, what they do in their communities or how they themselves feel about paying taxes?

    Or is it just one big brush?

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    The only way to solve the class bs is a standard tax %. No loopholes, no crap, you pay what I pay what he pays. Same thing for corporations. Close the loopholes and swim in all the extra money.
    the better way would be to quit taxing productivity and tax consumption

    there are choices, my vote is going to Gary Johnson

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Does your bitterness toward the well off discriminate in any way based on how they got there, what they do in their communities or how they themselves feel about paying taxes?

    Or is it just one big brush?
    I should have put "bitterness" in quotes in the first place. It's not the right word and I only used it because it was already there. I don't "preach bitterness" because someone has more than me.

    So if you're well off:

    Do I care if you have more $ than me? No. Would I like to have more sometimes? Sure. Am I willing to accept the tradeoffs to attain it? No. Don't look at it as jealousy; I'm well aware there are a ton of people who are willing to work harder than me to reach a higher plateau and I don't begrudge them that position when they attain it. As I've said though, I don't want to subsidize it either. Pull your own weight.

    Do I care if you're a pillar of your community? Nope, good for you. That doesn't mean you should get to pay a smaller share because you do something "good" for the community. I don't know the numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that on average, the income group that is more charitable on a % of wealth basis (not a dollar amount) is closer to the bottom of the ladder than the top anyway.

    Do I care how they feel about paying taxes? Kinda. Everyone hates to pay taxes, the rich are no different. What bothers me is that if you're well off and you expect ME to pay a larger share than YOU. That pisses me off more than words.

    Painting everyone with a broad brush is stupid, whether you're talking rich, poor or whatever. I view each subset of the population as a bell curve. You can have despicable "rich" people at the bottom, a big fat proportion of normal people who happen to have a great deal of money in the middle, and noble "rich" people at the top who actively want to better society as a whole and are happy to pull their own weight and then some.

    On the other hand, the same reasoning can be applied to the "poor". Most people want to blanket them as only having their hand out and leaching off YOUR money. Some of them suck for sure and I don't have kind words for them. Everyone says if you want a better life, work at it and stop putting your hand out and living in EBT heaven. A lot of them are already doing exactly that. Funny how the focus is only put on the scum of the poor as a reason rile people up to side with the GOP. Poor people aren't going away. Neither are rich people. Everyone needs to find a way to make this all work instead of killing each other in the class warfare.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Not sure where you're going with that. Practically there's a difference, sure. Ethically, I'm not really sure. Depends on how you view it.

    Disregarding the "handouts" to the poor, which is pretty much a seperate issue, I view this as the left wants to help alleviate the middle class tax burden and ask the wealthy to pay a fairer share. I don't see that as ethically wrong.

    The right wants to ease the burden on the wealthy and increase the burden on the middle class. In a consumer driven economy, mostly by the middle class, how does squeezing them help generate economic growth? I see that as a bigger issue. I think it's bullshit that if you make life easier for the job creators the jobs will magically appear and all will be sangri la again. They're gonna take the money and do whatever the fuck they were going to do anyway. Anything else is a line they want to jam down people's throats.

    Want proof? Look at the banking industry. The whole premise behind the bailout was to ease the strain on them so they would lend to people again which in turn would help drive the recovery. I see a whole lot of banks sitting on a fat stack of cash, posting some pretty good results and not lending jack shit to people.

    Everyone loves to use housing #'s as an indicator of our economic health. Most of America needs to borrow money to buy a house. If the banks aren't lending, how can someone expect this metric to actually improve?

    Personal example; I'm an 805 credit score with 50% equity in my property and no other debt; never missed a payment in my life. Obtaining an equity line of credit that would dilute my equity by roughly 10% took an act of God. If the banks don't want to lend money to someone like me who the hell are they lending it to?
    Ethically, it is a huge difference between (a) giving someone money that another person has earned vs. (b) allowing a person to keep what he himself has earned. Indeed, few ethical differences are greater.

    Saying that "right wants to ease the burden on the wealthy and increase the burden on the middle class" is simple leftist propaganda, parroted directly from Obama's book of lies. The line the Rs have been trying to hold is to not increase taxes on ANYONE. they aren't doing a hell of a lot about the spending (especially military spending, which we need to drastically cut). But I give them credit for trying not to raise taxes in a difficult time.

    I agree that the banking bailout was wrong, again on both a practical and an ethical level. But that's yet another different issue from either tax rates, or handouts to the poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Interesting for the "spending hawks".

    Obama 4 more years-mw-ar658_spendi_20120521163312_me-jpg

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...-barack-obama/
    Um, no. This graph shows the *increases*, not the spending levels. Assuming it is accurate, what it shows is that Obama has not made the problem a lot *worse*, but he hasn't made it better either. And their headline is just plain misleading.

    If Reagan starts with spending $69, and raises it to $75, then Bush I raises it to $79, then Clinton raises it to $85, then Bush II raises it to $100, and then Obama only raises it to $101 -- that does NOT make Obama the "smallest government spender". It makes him the BIGGEST government spender, just not by a huge margin.

    So I don't know if that Forbes article is just confused, or a deliberate lie, but it's really misleading either way.

    PhilB

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    Last edited by PhilB; 08-13-12 at 10:53 PM.
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    The bailout wasnt wrong it just wasnt enough to fix a broken system. Letting it fail although utopian to some distopian to others was not an option. Given that we as consumers rely on a privately based economic policy to say "fuck it, hit reset" would hurt only the lower income brackets. By lower i mean not super wealthy. That nice little feeling you get seeing FDIC insured is only in the event it is a controlled environment. Let the system crumble and that feeling would turn to sheer terror as what you thought you had is now gone. Completely.

    Military spending is out of control, but currently a ton of R and D is being absorbed into that so to eliminate the budget altogether it would then be about "well we cant walk away from our political agenda fire all the engineers and scientists"

    Welfare is a shitty model entirely but we are a nation dependent of gov't subsidies whether we want to recognize the value or not is up to us. Instead we cry about universal health care as being enacted to cover a few while the majority is screwed we fail to recognize that we aren't being taxed more in relation to the boom that led us to 2008 so regardless the outcome we have reached a point where it costs more to be an american. At least with healthcare it is masked with the idea of bettering the population as opposed to "we need more war money"

    Regulation/free market fuck you. We need some govt oversight so "we the people" arent taken advantage of by "i the corporation" lie to yourself otherwise and 2008 is bound to repeat itself at some point.

    There is no such thing as "class warfare". I grew up in a blue collar family there is no mandate stating i have to work construction the rest of.my life.

    Education is fucked

    Our view of a states ability to write its own policy as part of a unified country is fucked

    The political process has broken down to a high school lunch room fight and the majority of us are on the side lines "Fight! Fight! Fight!"

    We live in a global system now. Time for us to stop complaining "we arent number one anymore" we need to find our place and fucking.contribute again. We still have the bedrock for innovation in our genes. Time to fucking own up to it and stop trying to mitigate our standing in the world. We need to prove it. Not through war or creative booking keeping, but through technology, science, understanding.

    Yeah its a nice view from my soap box, but a better view of the beach and even better conversations with people who have yet to spend more than a very small percentage of their lives here and are making people like myself ashamed that i have missed the mark entirely on the amoubt of opportunity that is here.

    Debt we all have it. Pay it like a fucking adult and deal with the consequences if you dont.

    Mind your own fucking business. This goes out to every judgemental person that thinks "my way is the right way and others agree" good for you, now fuck off. There is no direct or easy path in life especially now. Life is tough. We all make sacrifices. Stop expecting the govt to regulate others onoy the way yoy see fit. Either we all adhere to compromise or we all move to canada. Something tells me they would buold a fence within a week.

    Religion/beliefs part of the human condition. Leave them out of our politics please. Yes from the bottom up. They continue to sell to those they think are buying the shit they are selling. Its our fault not theirs.

    Anything else? Oh yeah go chargers/padres/shamu. What do they have in common they are battling the same odds this thread and everyone one of us is battling. Its called a losing fight.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by R1 View Post
    .......

    The political process has broken down to a high school lunch room fight and the majority of us are on the side lines "Fight! Fight! Fight!"

    ....
    This...

    It's exactly what they want. Fight over who started the fire while the arson is running around burning everything.

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  24. #74
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyO View Post
    the better way would be to quit taxing productivity and tax consumption

    there are choices, my vote is going to Gary Johnson
    I would totally be down with consumption. It'd give a motivated guy like myself to:
    A-turn my entire back yard into a garden.
    B-pedal my ass to work more (56m round trip)
    C-ride motorbikes more when not pedaling
    D-shop as locally as humanly possible for everything else to avoid traveling to, and giving money to corporations that suck anyway
    E-and I'd probably get hip to greening up my house, although solar is just as bad, with the production and all

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    Lifer obsolete's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Saying that "right wants to ease the burden on the wealthy and increase the burden on the middle class" is simple leftist propaganda, parroted directly from Obama's book of lies. The line the Rs have been trying to hold is to not increase taxes on ANYONE. they aren't doing a hell of a lot about the spending (especially military spending, which we need to drastically cut). But I give them credit for trying not to raise taxes in a difficult time.
    PhilB
    Which show have you been watching? Cuts to the top have to either be paid for or increase our debt. The solution we're being told is to cut services that the middle and lower classes use. Since Ronnie the R's have been giving breaks to the top and asking the burden to be shifted lower through cuts and yes, tax increases, like payroll taxes. Romney and Ryan have both proposed tax plans that decrease the taxes at the top and, once again, will arguably increase for the the lower.

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