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Obama 4 more years

  1. #76
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years


    Chipper,

    All good things, but why do you need the tax system to change to do them?

    Look at how much of the price of a gallon of gas already goes to taxes. We a already taxing consumption in many less obvious ways.

    Everything on your list would improve the quality of your life, your health and save money right now.

    Is it really the tax system that prevents you, and 99% of us, from doing these things?

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    Last edited by SteveM; 08-14-12 at 07:37 AM.

  2. #77
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Chipper,

    All good things, but why do you need the tax system to change to do them?

    Look at how much of the price of a gallon of gas already goes to taxes. We a already taxing consumption in many less obvious ways.

    Everything on your list would improve the quality of your life, your health and save money right now.

    Is it really the tax system that prevents you, and 99% of us, from doing these things?
    For the vast majority of Americans, I'd say yes, they won't change consumption habits without a swift kick in the ass. It is too ingrained in our society to consume as much as possible for people to change on their own. It took a near economic collapse to get people to simply reduce their spending, yet here we are 3 years later and credit card debt has risen again.

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    Last edited by SRTie4k; 08-14-12 at 07:51 AM.
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  3. #78

    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by obsolete View Post
    Which show have you been watching? Cuts to the top have to either be paid for or increase our debt. The solution we're being told is to cut services that the middle and lower classes use. Since Ronnie the R's have been giving breaks to the top and asking the burden to be shifted lower through cuts and yes, tax increases, like payroll taxes. Romney and Ryan have both proposed tax plans that decrease the taxes at the top and, once again, will arguably increase for the the lower.
    Never a mention of cutting spending. I already can see what horse and pony show you watch. The Fear Factor hosted by Obama with cohost Polosi and now they want you to eat some bullshit.....Stop falling fot the same ole class warfare crap kiddo. Your too smart for that. I have seen some of your posts and they can be brillant.

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  4. #79
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTie4k View Post
    For the vast majority of Americans, I'd say yes, they won't change consumption habits without a swift kick in the ass. It is too ingrained in our society to consume as much as possible for people to change on their own. It took a near economic collapse to get people to simply reduce their spending, yet here we are 3 years later and credit card debt has risen again.
    Sad

    But

    True

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  5. #80
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    I pedal/motorbike to work frequently already. My yard is tiny, it hasn't yet been converted to yield produce, And yeah, I try and get as much as possible locally. Having a more definitive, in my face, reason would only make me more motivated. Right now I'm just that nut that pedals almost 30m to work so I can be fast in the woods on my dirty.

    And to further the point, my good health will give less of my health insurance benefit to an already fucked medical/pharmaceutical industry, which IMO is the other half of the oil/industrial ail in our economy.
    (not including the media which is really responsible for manipulating how the nation perceives our situation)

    And since I'm on my soapbox here, of people were forced to take responsibility for their own actions and held accountable from childhood on up, we wouldn't be in the fucking mess now. People in general would be making smarter decisions, in all aspects of life, and the entire world would be better off. But alas, the humans are weakening.

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  6. #81
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Obama 4 more years-romney-2012-infographic-job-plan_0-a

    This is directly off Mitt Romney's website so screw claiming leftist propaganda.

    Someone please tell me how it's actually possible to deliver on everything under "skills to suceed" and "champion small business" while also doing those in "cut the deficit".

    These are nothing but bullet points backed by nothing of any substance. Any businessman worth a damn should know that it's necessary to invest in the companies future in order to grow and slashing spending isn't going to work when you're truly trying to do that.

    That money has to come from somewhere and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out options as to where those are. You can increase revenue through taxes or you can borrow.

    If you look at the actual numbers involved, and not just talking points, I'd bet that even if you eliminated the "hated" social programs it's still impossible to accomplish that agenda so I don't want to hear slash spending to those. It's a shell game. If Romney slashes the programs so the conservatives will vote for him he 's only going to move it to other areas.

    Maybe that's why no one wants the public to see the actual numbers?

    Oh, and that last bullet point under "cut the deficit". Does anyone realize that also means some people are going to lose their jobs? For someone campaigning on the premise that job growth and the economy isn't improving fast enough I find it galling that he thinks he can slip that in there and think no one will realize what that actually means to the middle class he claims wants to "help".

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  7. #82
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Never a mention of cutting spending. I already can see what horse and pony show you watch. The Fear Factor hosted by Obama with cohost Polosi and now they want you to eat some bullshit.....Stop falling fot the same ole class warfare crap kiddo. Your too smart for that. I have seen some of your posts and they can be brillant.
    First I'll address your fallacy with a big fuck you. Pack up your condensation and fake ass compliment and get to stepping. That is a backhanded compliment that assumes if I'm as smart as you say I should agree with you. Hardly. If you want to make a point, make it.

    Class warfare is a bs term used by the R's when the middle class fights back from being crushed. During the past 30 years growth at the top has been gang busters and the middle has all but stagnated. It is very real and a very real problem. I have no problem with people getting rich. I just want the growth to be across the board as a nation, not propping up the upper class by being crushed under a boot.

    Obama 4 more years-meanhouseholdincome1967to2008-png

    Fear factor? Is that a joke? You're a Tea Partier, the kings of fear mongering.

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    Last edited by obsolete; 08-14-12 at 08:21 AM.
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  8. #83

    Re: Obama 4 more years


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  9. #84

    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Yeah your right Obsolete. Those crazy Tea Partiers saying crap like out of control spending
    will bankrupt the US and they made up the lowered credit rating for the USA. The also tell us how Republicans want to starve kids and pollute the whole planet and kill elderly. Talk sense here. You and I both fucking know who the fear mongers are. The fucking Democrats have shit to offer but fear.

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  10. #85
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    I thought the democrats offered handouts to all? Who's side are you on Walshy?

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  11. #86
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    Re: Obama 4 more years


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  12. #87
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Yeah your right Obsolete. Those crazy Tea Partiers saying crap like out of control spending
    will bankrupt the US and they made up the lowered credit rating for the USA. The also tell us how Republicans want to starve kids and pollute the whole planet and kill elderly. Talk sense here. You and I both fucking know who the fear mongers are. The fucking Democrats have shit to offer but fear.
    Well let's just look at our own richw who wants to cut back the EPA and changed his screen name and promised not to talk about politics for fear of the death panels. You guys feed on fears: illegals, terrorists, China taking over the world, Iran nuking us...

    You saying this is a trait of the Democrats is a fucking joke.

    Even in your video, Ron Paul's example of the bank bailout and Iraq war fear tactic are in direct contradiction to what you are saying. Both were enacted by a republican president. Arguing this when your own evidence states otherwise is looney toons.

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    Last edited by obsolete; 08-14-12 at 10:46 AM.
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  13. #88

    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Even Bill says the Democrats need to knock the stupid shit off:::


    Says Democrats Should Stop Fearmongering And Start Working To Fix Social Security And Medicare?



    Written By : John Hawkins

    The Republicans should seize upon what Bill Clinton said to Paul Ryan and repeat it over and over again until people who barely even follow politics are sick of hearing it yet again.


    I think the Democrats are going to have to be willing to give up, maybe, some short-term political gain by whipping up fears on some of these things — if it’s a reasonable Social Security proposal, a reasonable Medicare proposal. We’ve got to deal with these things. You cannot have health care devour the economy.

    Of course, what are the Democrats actually doing?

    Going for short-term political gain by whipping up fears while they wait for health care to devour the economy.

    That doesn’t mean that Clinton supports the Ryan plan. He specifically said that he doesn’t. But, what he is suggesting is that the Democrats should put looking out for the good of the country above purely partisan concerns, which is something Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi have proven completely unwilling to do. They’re all perfectly fine with the country going down in a fiery heap like the Hindenburg as long as they get to be captain up until the moment of the explosion. It’s a downright sociopathic approach to governance, but unfortunately, that’s what Republicans in DC have to deal with.

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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Even Bill says the Republicans need to knock the stupid shit off:::


    Says Republicans Should Stop Fearmongering And Start Working To Fix Social Security And Medicare?



    Written By : John Hawkins

    The Democrats should seize upon what Bill Clinton said to Paul Ryan and repeat it over and over again until people who barely even follow politics are sick of hearing it yet again.


    I think the Republicans are going to have to be willing to give up, maybe, some short-term political gain by whipping up fears on some of these things — if it’s a reasonable Social Security proposal, a reasonable Medicare proposal. We’ve got to deal with these things. You cannot have health care devour the economy.

    Of course, what are the Republicans actually doing?

    Going for short-term political gain by whipping up fears while they wait for health care to devour the economy.

    That doesn’t mean that Clinton supports the Ryan plan. He specifically said that he doesn’t. But, what he is suggesting is that the Republicans should put looking out for the good of the country above purely partisan concerns, which is something the GOP have proven completely unwilling to do. They’re all perfectly fine with the country going down in a fiery heap like the Hindenburg as long as they get to be captain up until the moment of the explosion. It’s a downright sociopathic approach to governance, but unfortunately, that’s what Democrats in DC have to deal with.
    How is really any different?

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  15. #90
    Super Adventurer SRTie4k's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Hey look, a political discussion that turned into a Republicans vs Democrats debate. Sounds familiar.

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  16. #91
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Shocking. Especially since that's the frame work we're stuck working with.

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  17. #92
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by obsolete View Post
    First I'll address your fallacy with a big fuck you. Pack up your condensation and fake ass compliment and get to stepping. That is a backhanded compliment that assumes if I'm as smart as you say I should agree with you. Hardly. If you want to make a point, make it.

    Class warfare is a bs term used by the R's when the middle class fights back from being crushed. During the past 30 years growth at the top has been gang busters and the middle has all but stagnated. It is very real and a very real problem. I have no problem with people getting rich. I just want the growth to be across the board as a nation, not propping up the upper class by being crushed under a boot.

    Obama 4 more years-meanhouseholdincome1967to2008-png

    Fear factor? Is that a joke? You're a Tea Partier, the kings of fear mongering.
    Your chart doesn't prove anything. The bottom line is simply presenting data doesn't prove shit. Its the explanation behind it that makes it solid. If you start breaking it down and discussing the reasons why the difference in income exists you will see that it can be used to argue against your point just as much as it can be used to argue for it.

    How do I know this? My poly sci professor loved this exact data. He would throw it up on the board for his classes to trigger a debate. In the end neither side could win and it helped him prove his point about how data like this never gives us the real answers and in some cases keeps us from seeing them.

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  18. #93
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    Your chart doesn't prove anything. The bottom line is simply presenting data doesn't prove shit. Its the explanation behind it that makes it solid. If you start breaking it down and discussing the reasons why the difference in income exists you will see that it can be used to argue against your point just as much as it can be used to argue for it.

    How do I know this? My poly sci professor loved this exact data. He would throw it up on the board for his classes to trigger a debate. In the end neither side could win and it helped him prove his point about how data like this never gives us the real answers and in some cases keeps us from seeing them.
    Yes, of course, data isn't what we should base our opinion on. It should be based of our gut feeling and anecdotal evidence. I too would hate hate to see data that said the exact opposite of what I "feel". Fact of the matter is the middle class has stagnated while the upper 5% have increased exponentially and we, the people in the bottom, are being asked to sacrifice more by the R's.

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  19. #94
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Stagnated? How do you read that the middle class has stagnated from that graph? If you consider the average definition for "middle class" is a family which makes more than $100,000/yr, then take a look at that graph, it shows that MORE people have entered the middle class from lower classes, and more previously middle class people have entered the "upper class" ranks.

    The salary of the average family in the top 5% has increased 100%, but is more volatile.
    The salary of the average family in the top 5th percentile has increased 75%, but remains relatively constant.
    The salary of the average family in the fourth percentile has increased 50% and remains extremely constant.

    I agree with BSR on this however, that graph is absolutely worthless on its own merits.

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    Last edited by SRTie4k; 08-14-12 at 12:07 PM.
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  20. #95
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by obsolete View Post
    Yes, of course, data isn't what we should base our opinion on. It should be based of our gut feeling and anecdotal evidence. I too would hate hate to see data that said the exact opposite of what I "feel". Fact of the matter is the middle class has stagnated while the upper 5% have increased exponentially and we, the people in the bottom, are being asked to sacrifice more by the R's.
    You're still not getting it. My point is the data alone states nothing. The answer lies in the reason behind why the data is what it is, and this in itself is where the real discussion lies.

    You are trying to be logical and use this information to prove your point. In order to do so you have to provide reason behind the data. MY point is once you do that, you will see that one can just as easily provide reasons behind the data that completely argue against your point. In the end the chart is worthless because you can use the information you have provided to argue completely opposite view. It leads to a deadlock with both sides making good sense but since neither can be proven we never know who is right.

    The bottom line...You my friend are the one who is arguing from gut feeling because you are refusing to recognize this. You are taking information that is nothing but superficial and trying to make a point by excluding the reality that there is actually a quite sound opposing argument based on the exact information you have provided.

    I analyze data like this for a living. I can't tell you how many times people believe that because something makes sense that it must be true, and end up being dead wrong because they are so wrapped up in the logic behind it. I hear it every day..."but that data shows...". Well at least 50% of the time what the data shows ends up being complete horse shit. I find this convenient because its the very reason I have a job. If it was always right they wouldn't need someone like me to analyze it.

    This is the problem with politics and society in general. There are too many "thinkers" who aren't really thinking. Just because something makes sense, doesn't mean it's true.

    Ever heard the term "Academic detachment"? It basically refers to the idea of being so wrapped up in your head, all you do is talk all kinds of great talk, make all kinds of sense, but in the end don't know shit and never actually have an impact on anything.

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  21. #96
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by obsolete View Post
    Which show have you been watching? Cuts to the top have to either be paid for or increase our debt.
    OR CUT OUR SPENDING. (And I haven't been watching any shows; I haven't had a TV since 1984. Better living through reduction in stupidity and propaganda.)
    Quote Originally Posted by obsolete View Post
    The solution we're being told is to cut services that the middle and lower classes use. Since Ronnie the R's have been giving breaks to the top and asking the burden to be shifted lower through cuts and yes, tax increases, like payroll taxes. Romney and Ryan have both proposed tax plans that decrease the taxes at the top and, once again, will arguably increase for the the lower.
    "Arguably" -- means "not actually true, but you maybe could make a case for it".

    Note that I am not a Republican, and don't like them much more than I do the Democrats. But I will give either party credit when due, and the recent record of the Rs holding to not increasng taxes for anyone is due them some credit.

    PhilB

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  22. #97
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    Wirelessly posted

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM
    "Hammer"

    Now there's a nonpartisan word.

    I think there is way too much attention being paid to taxes. Taxes are a result of earnings. An improving economy will increase earnings and therefore everyone will pay more taxes.

    Taxes have become a bullet in the chamber of class warfare, taking our collective eye off the more important issues of overall economic growth and increased opportunity for most Americans to improve their lives through hard work.

    There is only one thing we agree upon with regard to taxes and that is the conviction that we pay too much and someone else doesn't pay enough.
    Much as it pains me, I have to agree with Steve here. There IS way too much talk of taxes. This country is so under-taxed its not funny. I agree with cutting government waste and curtailing spending, but it does seem strange to me how much whining is done about taxes. We pay relatively little tax in this country and freaking TONS of stuff is tax deductible.

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  23. #98
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    Much as it pains me, I have to agree with Steve here. There IS way too much talk of taxes. This country is so under-taxed its not funny. I agree with cutting government waste and curtailing spending, but it does seem strange to me how much whining is done about taxes. We pay relatively little tax in this country and freaking TONS of stuff is tax deductible.
    Wow. Apparently we are getting messages from an alternate universe. 'Cause it sure isn't this one.

    PhilB

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  24. #99
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    You're still not getting it. My point is the data alone states nothing. The answer lies in the reason behind why the data is what it is, and this in itself is where the real discussion lies.

    You are trying to be logical and use this information to prove your point. In order to do so you have to provide reason behind the data. MY point is once you do that, you will see that one can just as easily provide reasons behind the data that completely argue against your point. In the end the chart is worthless because you can use the information you have provided to argue completely opposite view. It leads to a deadlock with both sides making good sense but since neither can be proven we never know who is right.

    The bottom line...You my friend are the one who is arguing from gut feeling because you are refusing to recognize this. You are taking information that is nothing but superficial and trying to make a point by excluding the reality that there is actually a quite sound opposing argument based on the exact information you have provided.

    I analyze data like this for a living. I can't tell you how many times people believe that because something makes sense that it must be true, and end up being dead wrong because they are so wrapped up in the logic behind it. I hear it every day..."but that data shows...". Well at least 50% of the time what the data shows ends up being complete horse shit. I find this convenient because its the very reason I have a job. If it was always right they wouldn't need someone like me to analyze it.

    This is the problem with politics and society in general. There are too many "thinkers" who aren't really thinking. Just because something makes sense, doesn't mean it's true.

    Ever heard the term "Academic detachment"? It basically refers to the idea of being so wrapped up in your head, all you do is talk all kinds of great talk, make all kinds of sense, but in the end don't know shit and never actually have an impact on anything.
    You're right, the upper percent has not gotten richer while the rest of us stagnate. We haven't increased the wealth disparity of the country. I know, people who disagree with you don't think. Thanks for making the point by arguing with anecdotal evidence of the people full of horse shit at your work.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    OR CUT OUR SPENDING. (And I haven't been watching any shows; I haven't had a TV since 1984. Better living through reduction in stupidity and propaganda.)"Arguably" -- means "not actually true, but you maybe could make a case for it".

    Note that I am not a Republican, and don't like them much more than I do the Democrats. But I will give either party credit when due, and the recent record of the Rs holding to not increasng taxes for anyone is due them some credit.

    PhilB
    I wasn't talking about TV, I was referring to the situation. It's just and expression, surprisingly you missed that in you reeducation from giving up TV.

    Ok fine, it will. But since he hasn't released it for review it's tough to get a full gauge on it. All that's really known is it cuts the top rates and is mathematically not possible. But more importantly it will increase our debt, just like the rest of your fiscally responsible R's. "Reagan proved deficits don't matter."

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  25. #100
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    Wirelessly posted



    Much as it pains me, I have to agree with Steve here. There IS way too much talk of taxes. This country is so under-taxed its not funny. I agree with cutting government waste and curtailing spending, but it does seem strange to me how much whining is done about taxes. We pay relatively little tax in this country and freaking TONS of stuff is tax deductible.
    I was hoping youmwould reply to this when I wrote it because I know you have experienced exactly the type of taxation I was referring to. Thanks.

    "pains" you? C'mon brah, big hug

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