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Obama 4 more years

  1. #101
    Lifer BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years


    While the average household income may not have rose proportionately with the upper 5%, our quality of life and economic stability has. First off, look at what the average American family in the 60's had, and look what the average American family has now. Secondly, the unemployment rate is currently 9% and we are calling this one of the worst recessions in history. What was the unemployment rate during the great depression?

    Our 96 year old neighbor told me a few months ago that we have no idea what a recession is. I don't have a hard time understanding what she means when she says that.

    We may not be seeing more household income, but we definately have a higher economic bottom line, and a better quality of life.

    Remember the picture of Michelle Obama at the soup kitchen with "poor" guy taking a picture of her with his cell phone? I think its fair to say things have gotten better for everybody over the years.

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  2. #102
    Lifer obsolete's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    While the average household income may not have rose proportionately with the upper 5%, our quality of life and economic stability has. First off, look at what the average American family in the 60's had, and look what the average American family has now. Secondly, the unemployment rate is currently 9% and we are calling this one of the worst recessions in history. What was the unemployment rate during the great depression?

    Our 96 year old neighbor told me a few months ago that we have no idea what a recession is. I don't have a hard time understanding what she means when she says that.

    We may not be seeing more household income, but we definately have a higher economic bottom line, and a better quality of life.

    Remember the picture of Michelle Obama at the soup kitchen with "poor" guy taking a picture of her with his cell phone? I think its fair to say things have gotten better for everybody over the years.

    More anecdotal. The upper percentage of people have grown their wealth at an exponential and wildly unproportionate rate compared to the rest of us, but hey, some poor guy made a bad financial decision and bought a cell phone that he can't afford so we should all be happy.

    This is turning into a bad joke.

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  3. #103
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    The lifestyle of the middle class and unemployment rate relative to other recessions are not anecdotal.

    That doesn't mean I think things are fine, but every single post in this thread contains something that could be used to discredit the entire post.

    Doing so is easy and doesn't enlighten the discussion.

    Beyond that, we have all seen statistics used to support both sides, so even with numbers there is no single truth.

    The reality is that most regular humans evaluate the economy through their own experience and those close to them. For better or worse, people feel that what they can see and hear in their world is more real and reliable than the so called news we are being fed from both sides.

    It may be anecdotal, but when the news is manufactured to hit a target demographic, anecdotal evidence has a place in the political narrative.

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  4. #104
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post

    It may be anecdotal, but when the news is manufactured to hit a target demographic
    I don't think there is anything anecdotal about that statement

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  5. #105
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Bad writing...

    What I meant was that his story might be anecdotal but when the alternative is manufactured news...

    Unclear on my part.

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  6. #106
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by obsolete View Post
    Ok fine, it will. But since he hasn't released it for review it's tough to get a full gauge on it. All that's really known is it cuts the top rates and is mathematically not possible. But more importantly it will increase our debt, just like the rest of your fiscally responsible R's. "Reagan proved deficits don't matter."
    In didn't say that the Rs were fiscally responsible. They aren't. They are almost as full of shit as the Ds on that. What I SAID was that I was giving them credit for trying not to raise taxes. Period. But since you seem to think anyone that approves of one thing someone does must be on their side, I guess expecting you to read the words that were written and respond rationally to those is unreasonable. I give Obama credit for ending DADT, and for drawing down the war in Iraq. Am I automatically an Obama-loving Democrat now?

    PhilB

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  7. #107
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Wow way to go way over board with that and completely missing the point. Them not raising taxes while spending increases debt, something you freak out about on the regular. You don't get to now separate the two to suit your argument.

    "I gotta hand it to them, they didn't raise taxes. Granted that made the problem way worse but I did like that one contributing factor."

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  8. #108
    Lifer obsolete's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    The lifestyle of the middle class and unemployment rate relative to other recessions are not anecdotal.

    That doesn't mean I think things are fine, but every single post in this thread contains something that could be used to discredit the entire post.

    Doing so is easy and doesn't enlighten the discussion.

    Beyond that, we have all seen statistics used to support both sides, so even with numbers there is no single truth.

    The reality is that most regular humans evaluate the economy through their own experience and those close to them. For better or worse, people feel that what they can see and hear in their world is more real and reliable than the so called news we are being fed from both sides.

    It may be anecdotal, but when the news is manufactured to hit a target demographic, anecdotal evidence has a place in the political narrative.
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Bad writing...

    What I meant was that his story might be anecdotal but when the alternative is manufactured news...

    Unclear on my part.


    I guess that's the defense. Calling it manufactured and saying it's a non-issue. Oye, whatever. Our continued wealth and income disparity is documented and continually asking the lower brackets to take more burden will just prove that this trickle down bs is killing the driving force of our economy, the middle class.

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  9. #109
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by obsolete View Post
    I guess that's the defense. Calling it manufactured and saying it's a non-issue. Oye, whatever. Our continued wealth and income disparity is documented and continually asking the lower brackets to take more burden will just prove that this trickle down bs is killing the driving force of our economy, the middle class.
    Where did I mention any of that?

    All I was trying to point out was you picked one anecdotal item from his previous post and dismissed the entire post.

    But as a result of this continuing bullshit, I've changed my position on taxes. I no longer want the entire middle class to be taxed into oblivion to pay for my luxurious republican lifestyle.

    Just you.

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB
    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    Much as it pains me, I have to agree with Steve here. There IS way too much talk of taxes. This country is so under-taxed its not funny. I agree with cutting government waste and curtailing spending, but it does seem strange to me how much whining is done about taxes. We pay relatively little tax in this country and freaking TONS of stuff is tax deductible.
    Wow. Apparently we are getting messages from an alternate universe. 'Cause it sure isn't this one.

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  11. #111
    Lifer
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    Obama 4 more years

    Switzerland.

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  12. #112
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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  13. #113
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years


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  14. #114
    Lifer obsolete's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Where did I mention any of that?

    All I was trying to point out was you picked one anecdotal item from his previous post and dismissed the entire post.

    But as a result of this continuing bullshit, I've changed my position on taxes. I no longer want the entire middle class to be taxed into oblivion to pay for my luxurious republican lifestyle.

    Just you.
    You said taxes are not an important issue earlier and "manufactured news" was pulled from your previous post. If it wasn't in reference to my post then you should be more clear in what / who you are addressing. Doesn't matter cause i hope you trip into a puddle of AIDS. neener neener neener

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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesmoTull
    Switzerland.
    Well, that made me giggle.

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  16. #116
    Lifer BSR6's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Look at Japan...They are famous for catering to businesses. Some say that corporations run the country over there.

    They are the size of california, only 20% of the land is livable, they have almost no natural resources, and yet they rose to be one of the worlds strongest economies.

    As far as countries with high taxes still prospering...First off, most of them aren't nearly as developed economically. If you look closely at the ones that are strong economically, you will see that the government has done many things to cater to businesses. In the end it's not about no regulation, it's about the right regulation.

    My point is, if you support businesses it does trickle down. The catch is you have to do so in an appropriate manner. Unfortunately I don't think either party has a clue in how to do this, but I do firmly believe that while both sides are missing the mark, Obama's approach is more off the mark than the others.

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  17. #117
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    Look at Japan...They are famous for catering to businesses. Some say that corporations run the country over there.

    They are the size of california, only 20% of the land is livable, they have almost no natural resources, and yet they rose to be one of the worlds strongest economies.
    Are you using them as a good example or a bad one?

    They may have risen to great economic power by catering to corporations but considering their infamous "lost decade", deflationary pressure and a debt load that's over 200% GDP I sure don't see that as a path I want to go down.

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  18. #118
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Obama 4 more years-531223_504992156192883_493843643_n-jpg

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  19. #119
    Just Registered ThisBitch's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    I love that Republicans are both anti-spending and pro-war. Hopefully Michelle Bachmann figures out a way to shit golden eggs, otherwise I don't see how we can continue to occupy other countries while cutting spending.

    I also love that Republicans are pro-life and pro-war. God forbid we terminate a pregnancy early, but the thousands of innocent civilians we've killed in Iraq and Afghanistan? Well those weren't technically "people" because they don't look like us, right?

    Lastly, I love that the Tea Party, a "movement" funded by the Koch brothers, calls itself grass roots and their followers are so adamant that they are just 'normal people'. You're a bunch of fucking muppets doing the bidding of some wealthy individuals who want all regulations abolished so they can destroy the environment in the name of capitalism.

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  20. #120
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    .....if you support businesses it does trickle down. The catch is you have to do so in an appropriate manner. Unfortunately I don't think either party has a clue in how to do this, but I do firmly believe that while both sides are missing the mark, Obama's approach is more off the mark than the others.
    I don't see either side actually addressing this.
    They seem to be wrapped up in personal income tax and how it effects the individual. I have not heard much from either side concerning business growth. I do believe that the Republicans like deregulation and the Ds want to restore some of the regulations that held these gambling greedy bastards in check since the great depression.

    From what I have gathered, Romney's camp has not released his position on how to improve the small businesses ability to create wealth..
    He seems to be locked in on the belief that lowering the wealthy's personal taxes will "trickle down" to new jobs.
    I believe this has little or no effect on jobs.
    The business owner does not make business growth decisions based on their personal wealth.
    They actually look at how the business is doing. If increase in demand proves that the company should grow, they grow and this means new jobs. Reducing the taxes on the rich does nothing except allow the rich to become more rich.

    I don't know if Obama and the Ds have a better solution for the economy but considering the state the country was in 2008 and how far the economy has recovered since then, I will continue to support him for that and most of the other social issues...like women's right to choose, healthcare, education, the regulation of wallstreet, etc etc

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  21. #121
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    As is well known here, I am a registered republican and have never voted for a democratic presidential candidate since I was eleigible to vote in 1984. Both of my parents were lifelong democrats and union members.

    However,

    I am anti-spending, but also anti-war. Domestic security does not require us to be the world's permanent police force. All military interventions abroad should be swift, overwhelming and decisive. The notion of being able to create democracy in places where they cannot grasp it is ridiculous.

    I am neutral, to the point of disinterested, in abortion. It is a personal issue that I will never face. Roe V. Wade will never be overturned, access to abortion should be harder than access to a cheeseburger but easier than getting into a good college. The only real debate is "who pays for it." In that regard, it's another medical procedure, no more no less. Having said that, I am also a person of faith and my catholic faith is pro-life. I practice my faith by putting, "judge not lest ye be judged" first.

    I believe a pro-business government is our best option, but it must have reasonable regulation and consumer protections. Government cannot and should not protect peole from their own ignorance, stupidity and carelessness in financial matters. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, but the "business of America is business" and nothing cures our bitching quicker than jobs and opportunity to improve our lives.

    The ONLY reason I put any of this forward, and it could be much more, is to illustrate the single biggest failing in current political discourse, the broad brush. Republicans and Democrats do not exist as monolithic stone icons of singular thought. We polarize the debate constantly by coloring the picture with only black and white, good and bad, right and wrong, left and right, etc.

    And to make matters worse, when we do this, we only see the fringes of each party, not the variety within the parties, the common interests of both parties or the quieter but more rational center of both parties. All too quickly, a partisan, right here in this thread will state, "Well, all that is true abut my party, but yours is a single-minded flock of loons determined to do nothing but shit on the rest of us."

    Is that really the best we can do?

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    Last edited by SteveM; 08-15-12 at 11:03 AM.

  22. #122
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    This is like watching men's beach volley ball. The shit goes back and forth, one side to the other, there's an occasional well placed slam, but in the end, it's not nearly as entertaining as women's.

    Now some really zealous person should tell me what an ass I am for making light of something of such importance and that I should just abstaian from voting, period.

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  23. #123
    Lifer obsolete's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by gadget View Post
    I don't see either side actually addressing this.
    They seem to be wrapped up in personal income tax and how it effects the individual. I have not heard much from either side concerning business growth. I do believe that the Republicans like deregulation and the Ds want to restore some of the regulations that held these gambling greedy bastards in check since the great depression.

    From what I have gathered, Romney's camp has not released his position on how to improve the small businesses ability to create wealth..
    He seems to be locked in on the belief that lowering the wealthy's personal taxes will "trickle down" to new jobs.
    I believe this has little or no effect on jobs.
    The business owner does not make business growth decisions based on their personal wealth.
    They actually look at how the business is doing. If increase in demand proves that the company should grow, they grow and this means new jobs. Reducing the taxes on the rich does nothing except allow the rich to become more rich.

    I don't know if Obama and the Ds have a better solution for the economy but considering the state the country was in 2008 and how far the economy has recovered since then, I will continue to support him for that and most of the other social issues...like women's right to choose, healthcare, education, the regulation of wallstreet, etc etc
    I talked about this my first post. We need to focus on small businesses, infrastructure and manufacturing to bring back our good middle class jobs. More jobs, more money in the economy and more demand for goods.

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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6
    Look at Japan...They are famous for catering to businesses. Some say that corporations run the country over there.

    They are the size of california, only 20% of the land is livable, they have almost no natural resources, and yet they rose to be one of the worlds strongest economies.

    As far as countries with high taxes still prospering...First off, most of them aren't nearly as developed economically. If you look closely at the ones that are strong economically, you will see that the government has done many things to cater to businesses. In the end it's not about no regulation, it's about the right regulation.

    My point is, if you support businesses it does trickle down. The catch is you have to do so in an appropriate manner. Unfortunately I don't think either party has a clue in how to do this, but I do firmly believe that while both sides are missing the mark, Obama's approach is more off the mark than the others.
    We could emulate Japan's economic growth (although their last 15 years or so have been dire) by simply wiping out a third of the population by having a war against an insurmountable enemy and firebombing two of our biggest cities (I vote NY and LA)

    Nothing like a massive population reduction and 2.5 million construction jobs to stimulate an economy.

    By the way, the rest of the world fiscally helped rebuild Japan.

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  25. #125
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by obsolete View Post
    I talked about this my first post. We need to focus on small businesses, infrastructure and manufacturing to bring back our good middle class jobs. More jobs, more money in the economy and more demand for goods.
    Should we do that by having government collect more money and redirect it into these initiatives, or should we do this by having government take a step away and let the market act?

    We all agree on the 3 things you listed, we don't all agree on how to get there.

    For example, one way to increase manufacturing would be to impose import tariffs on foreign goods (often disguised as anti-dumping legislation or fair trade). In the short term, this might increase the cost of living at home without a commensurate increase in income because some foreign goods we buy every day would cost more.

    p.s. I"m not saying you think we should do this, just an illustration of the complexity of the problem, which you have acknowledged elsewhere.

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