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Obama 4 more years

  1. #126
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years


    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    This is like watching men's beach volley ball. The shit goes back and forth, one side to the other, there's an occasional well placed slam, but in the end, it's not nearly as entertaining as women's.

    Now some really zealous person should tell me what an ass I am for making light of something of such importance and that I should just abstaian from voting, period.
    We need more satire and ridicule.

    We do not need any of the participants in this thread trying to make it more interesting by posting in bikini's, on that I am sure there should be universal agreement.

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  2. #127
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Should we do that by having government collect more money and redirect it into these initiatives, or should we do this by having government take a step away and let the market act?

    We all agree on the 3 things you listed, we don't all agree on how to get there.

    For example, one way to increase manufacturing would be to impose import tariffs on foreign goods (often disguised as anti-dumping legislation or fair trade). In the short term, this might increase the cost of living at home without a commensurate increase in income because some foreign goods we buy every day would cost more.

    p.s. I"m not saying you think we should do this, just an illustration of the complexity of the problem, which you have acknowledged elsewhere.
    I think there needs to be a wide range of "ways to get there". I addressed that earlier, but I also agree with tariffs that would allow US manufacturing firms compete in our own markets. Unless of course there's a better way to allow closer price competition with countries that exploit their workers.

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  3. #128
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Would the middle class stand for tariffs if it meant a tougher time now (higher cost of living) to get to a better time later (more good jobs here)?

    Will the American consumer pay more to protect American jobs by buying American goods at higher prices?

    I read an article recently that described the younger generation's (you're at the older end of it) reaction to this as a "quaint" notion.

    To tie this to NESR, there were once significant tariffs on foreign motorcycles to protect HD. Ironically, that same period marks HD's worst quality. That American manufacturer did not use tariff protection to buy the time necessary to develop manufacturing capability at a world class standard.

    I know this is one anecdote, but tariff protection is a really complicated issue.

    The issue here may be our instant gratification culture. Are Americans willing to scrifice standard of living, consumption of non-essentials and leisure time now to rebuild for a better generation in the future?

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  4. #129
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    Import of goods is a tough nut to crack at the best of times. We all agree that we are being screwed by cheap imports from countries that pay virtually nothing to employees.

    I think if you want to export goods to the US, you must employ a US inspector at your facility abroad and comply wih certain standards to avoid tariffs. Standards that are higher than UN agreed minimums.

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  5. #130
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    What was the UN agreed minimum for the number of pints a British motorcycle or auto assembler had to consume at lunch in the 1970's? Based on the legacy of those fine machines, it would appear the minimum was routinely exceeded!

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  6. #131
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Bad writing...

    What I meant was that his story might be anecdotal but when the alternative is manufactured news...

    Unclear on my part.
    News is like stastistics, skewed or enhanced to influence and unlikely the whole truth or even partially true.

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  7. #132
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyO View Post
    News is like stastistics, skewed or enhanced to influence and unlikely the whole truth or even partially true.
    We agree, nothing is without spin.

    Listen closely and carry a big salt shaker to get beyond it.

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  8. #133
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Would the middle class stand for tariffs if it meant a tougher time now (higher cost of living) to get to a better time later (more good jobs here)?


    The issue here may be our instant gratification culture. Are Americans willing to scrifice standard of living, consumption of non-essentials and leisure time now to rebuild for a better generation in the future?
    I think you answered your own question right here.

    I think far too many people are either unwilling, or lack the capacity, to look past the short term and have the patience necessary to realize some things take time.

    A prime example is the whole financial disaster. Arguably, we are going through one of the worst economic periods I hope to see in my lifetime, and one that is most likely going to be only rivaled by the Great Depression. Yet less than 4 years after the "event" people are upset that things aren't back to "normal". Seriously? Recovering from something of that magnitude does not just take overnight and it seems that's the expectation.

    Another example is energy. Gas spiked, people paniced and eventually started demanding smaller more fuel efficient cars along with energy independence and alternative energy sources. What happened when gas prices drifted down?

    Now the same people who clamored about the dire necessity of alternative energy are screaming at the top of their lungs about the spending to invest in those technologies. Way to stick to your guns

    So no, I don't think they will stand for tariffs or anything else along those lines and we will continue to pinball along sinking lower and lower until we're mired in the mud at the bottom of the world. Unless we wake up before then, ask our selves some serious questions, put a cohesive plan together and execute it over the long term. Here's hoping we do that soon.

    /rant

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  9. #134
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Ray-Ray for president!

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    Anyone here ever had to do an emergency figure "8"?
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  10. #135
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    Import of goods is a tough nut to crack at the best of times. We all agree that we are being screwed by cheap imports from countries that pay virtually nothing to employees.

    I think if you want to export goods to the US, you must employ a US inspector at your facility abroad and comply wih certain standards to avoid tariffs. Standards that are higher than UN agreed minimums.
    Tariffs and other protectionism is poor policy, harms more than it helps, and is ultimately futile. And no, we DON'T "all agree that we are being screwed by cheap imports from countries that pay virtually nothing to employees".

    PhilB

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  11. #136
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Would the middle class stand for tariffs if it meant a tougher time now (higher cost of living) to get to a better time later (more good jobs here)?

    Will the American consumer pay more to protect American jobs by buying American goods at higher prices?

    I read an article recently that described the younger generation's (you're at the older end of it) reaction to this as a "quaint" notion.

    To tie this to NESR, there were once significant tariffs on foreign motorcycles to protect HD. Ironically, that same period marks HD's worst quality. That American manufacturer did not use tariff protection to buy the time necessary to develop manufacturing capability at a world class standard.

    I know this is one anecdote, but tariff protection is a really complicated issue.

    The issue here may be our instant gratification culture. Are Americans willing to scrifice standard of living, consumption of non-essentials and leisure time now to rebuild for a better generation in the future?
    No one said everything is painless. I think it's a much easier pill to swallow than giving more income breaks to the top and asking us to wait for the trickle that has refused to come. It is a complex issue that will not be solved with "make the Chinese pay more!" but a more dynamic approach. Just increasing the cost to a fixed point will only lead to the situation you mentioned. I like Degsy's idea, but that has the huge possibility of abuse.

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  12. #137
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
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    Import of goods is a tough nut to crack at the best of times. We all agree that we are being screwed by cheap imports from countries that pay virtually nothing to employees.

    I think if you want to export goods to the US, you must employ a US inspector at your facility abroad and comply wih certain standards to avoid tariffs. Standards that are higher than UN agreed minimums.
    The problem with this is that we are no longer primarily an industrial nation. Sure we will always have factories and that will be a part of the picture, but you have to acknowledge that our economy has evolved into a new role. We could try this to bring manufacturing back but its really going against the grain.

    It's a topic we could write a book on so I don't know where to start. The bottom line is if you try to analyze our economy as if we were still an industrial nation its a formula for disaster. This is the problem I have with Obama, it's exactly what he is doing. He seems completely oblivious to the concept of what economists refer to as the intangible aspect of the economy, and seems to want to go back to WWII era ways which just isn't an option anymore.

    I'm not sure how to explain the intangible economics concept without writing a book. While the manufacturing role has shifted to China etc, the US has become the management side of it all. There was an article in business week a few years back the explained it extremely well. It explained how even though we have sent a ton of jobs overseas, overall the amount of jobs in the US has roughly stayed the same in the long run. The catch is the manufacturing jobs were replaced by a whole different role. It left the factory workers dead in the water, but provided tons of opportunity for others. These new jobs, and the general category they fall under can't be measured as easily as manufacturing and thats why it's referred to as intangible. Either way its there and the article did an excellent job of proving it. Not only is it there but its much stronger than the manufacturing segment we have given up for it.

    If we want to recover then this is where political policy needs to be aimed. Unfortunately its a concept that few understand. To start we have to face the fact that other countries are building our products for us, and the factory workers who have been abandoned as a result need to adapt to a new work environment if they want a job in the new segment of our economy that is emerging.

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    Last edited by BSR6; 08-15-12 at 02:09 PM.

  13. #138
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    A prime example is the whole financial disaster. Arguably, we are going through one of the worst economic periods I hope to see in my lifetime, and one that is most likely going to be only rivaled by the Great Depression. Yet less than 4 years after the "event" people are upset that things aren't back to "normal". Seriously? Recovering from something of that magnitude does not just take overnight and it seems that's the expectation.
    yer how old? 36, you were alive but not old enuf to be aware of the the Carter presidency, double digit inflation, mortgage interest rates as high as 18% (I bought my home at 13˝% thru Farmers Home) , gasoline more than doubled in price, much worse situation than now (for me anyway) and we bounced back in just a couple of years with Reagan

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    Last edited by RandyO; 08-15-12 at 02:12 PM.
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  14. #139
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyO View Post
    yer how old? 36, you were alive but not old enuf to be aware of the the Carter presidency, double digit inflation, mortgage interest rates as high as 18% (I bought my home at 13˝% thru Farmers Home) , gasoline more than doubled in price, much worse situation than now (for me anyway) and we bounced back in just a couple of years with Reagan
    Were those issues on global scale? I certainly don't know enough details but would venture to guess that problems in the 70's could be a much quicker fix when they're not interwoven on such a global scale as they are today.

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  15. #140
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    We bounced alright. Tripled the national debt.

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  16. #141

    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by ThisBitch View Post
    I love that Republicans are both anti-spending and pro-war. Hopefully Michelle Bachmann figures out a way to shit golden eggs, otherwise I don't see how we can continue to occupy other countries while cutting spending.

    I also love that Republicans are pro-life and pro-war. God forbid we terminate a pregnancy early, but the thousands of innocent civilians we've killed in Iraq and Afghanistan? Well those weren't technically "people" because they don't look like us, right?

    Lastly, I love that the Tea Party, a "movement" funded by the Koch brothers, calls itself grass roots and their followers are so adamant that they are just 'normal people'. You're a bunch of fucking muppets doing the bidding of some wealthy individuals who want all regulations abolished so they can destroy the environment in the name of capitalism.
    Anti-spending and pro-war? Sorta like being anti-death penalty for the guilty savage and its aokay to take the life of a innocent unborn. Thats seriously fucked up thinking mom. You been drinking the Koolaid on Kerry's (actually his wifes) yacht.....Try rewording to show something more in line with facts with restrained spending and not afraid to stand up for American interests. Unlike some jerk who spends time apologizing the world over. Did you know that just recently Obama wanted to go to Japan and make a speech on the anniversary of Hiroshima. Japan said no. They knew the jerk was gonna get apologetic and the rest of the world would be saying "Hey wait a minute, they started it". It does not matter a rats ass who founded the Tea Party. Fact is that today its us against Washington. Out of control spending I S the fucking problem. Democrats and Republicans are to blame. If you think for a second that either of those parties are gonna solve shit after creating this mess you stupidier that that cow in your avatar. Yeah I suck.

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  17. #142
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by e30addict View Post
    Were those issues on global scale? I certainly don't know enough details but would venture to guess that problems in the 70's could be a much quicker fix when they're not interwoven on such a global scale as they are today.

    Like Randy, I lived through Carter and Reagan while finishing college and starting my career. I also worked through the great bank and real estate collapse of 1989-1991. I guess at some point when you've lived through economic cycles like those and our current one, you get a little less excited about them.

    I can say without reservation that the press was far more sensational with regard to the current crisis. I'm not implying an agenda, just that this generation seems to need more extreme pronouncements of doom to pay attention. Walter Cronkite was never as wound up as today's new readers.

    This too, shall pass, and government has relatively little to do with it.

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  18. #143
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Anti-spending and pro-war? Sorta like being anti-death penalty for the guilty savage and its aokay to take the life of a innocent unborn. Thats seriously fucked up thinking mom. You been drinking the Koolaid on Kerry's (actually his wifes) yacht.....Try rewording to show something more in line with facts with restrained spending and not afraid to stand up for American interests. Unlike some jerk who spends time apologizing the world over. Did you know that just recently Obama wanted to go to Japan and make a speech on the anniversary of Hiroshima. Japan said no. They knew the jerk was gonna get apologetic and the rest of the world would be saying "Hey wait a minute, they started it". It does not matter a rats ass who founded the Tea Party. Fact is that today its us against Washington. Out of control spending I S the fucking problem. Democrats and Republicans are to blame. If you think for a second that either of those parties are gonna solve shit after creating this mess you stupidier that that cow in your avatar. Yeah I suck.
    No wonder the entire world hates us.

    Can't even remotely say sorry for killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians without the AMERICAN PRIDE going overboard again.

    Let's play a game.

    Name one thing Obama has done well as President related to his duties and responsibilities.

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  19. #144
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    No wonder the entire world hates us.

    Can't even remotely say sorry for killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians without the AMERICAN PRIDE going overboard again.

    Let's play a game.

    Name one thing Obama has done well as President related to his duties and responsibilities.
    'merca

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  20. #145
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Iglu gonna melt 'for Rambunctious answers that one!

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  21. #146
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    He'd get a better answer from asking Honey Boo Boo.

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  22. #147
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    Yeah. First thing i thought of was how cushy a number that job would be and bribery would be rife.

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  23. #148
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Like Randy, I lived through Carter and Reagan while finishing college and starting my career. I also worked through the great bank and real estate collapse of 1989-1991. I guess at some point when you've lived through economic cycles like those and our current one, you get a little less excited about them.
    even though inflation, interest and energy costs are not as bad as they were on the late 70s, this situation is different due to extreme uncertainty, back then I was lowly grunt only a few years into my career. now, I'm in a better financial position personally, but as an employer, the government is killing me, penalizing me for hiring employees, no incentive to increase productivity, quite the opposite, there are plenty of incentives to become "entitled" (just how can a white male become entitled? I'm thinking if I could, I would) and as I get closer to retirement, it's getting further and further away

    fwiw, I would vote for Richard Nixon again before I would ever vote for Obama or Romney

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  24. #149
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    Re: Obama 4 more years

    The tariffs are necessary because while the USA government from town to federals impede all forms of commerce the Asian nations help their businesses.

    You blithely say we are no longer doing the old businesses. True, but you should be very frightened by that. Entropy destroys things and consumes wealth.

    If you do NOT create wealth to replace it then you are going bankrupt, simple math

    The environmental ism is also BS because the so called experts are NOT honest determiners of what is damaging pollution.

    They hate humans, and human activities and are happy you are out of work

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  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB
    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    Import of goods is a tough nut to crack at the best of times. We all agree that we are being screwed by cheap imports from countries that pay virtually nothing to employees.

    I think if you want to export goods to the US, you must employ a US inspector at your facility abroad and comply wih certain standards to avoid tariffs. Standards that are higher than UN agreed minimums.
    Tariffs and other protectionism is poor policy, harms more than it helps, and is ultimately futile. And no, we DON'T "all agree that we are being screwed by cheap imports from countries that pay virtually nothing to employees".

    PhilB
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