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Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

  1. #226
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana


    Two adults in one house = 12 plants. 6 plants per person.

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  2. #227
    Lifer
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    What we're missing here is that there are a range of consequences to the tyranny of the majority. If the majority's view threatens the nature of our democracy, protections need to be in place. If the issue is one of preference or convenience, then the majority should have their way.

    I've been pilloried for this, both for not thinking it is not a big deal and for not siding with the YES vote if I don't think it a big deal. Apparently my opinion about this and my relative apathy about the outcome has marked me as the generational leader of a vast conspiracy to unjustly imprison young black men. I think there are reasons to oppose this and reasons to support it, but a lot of the supporters here don't see it as an issue where both sides have points.
    I'm not following how you can claim legalization of a recreational substance is tyranny of the majority. Can't I claim it's the other way around? That the tyranny was what first restricted it? The whole point of protecting the minority opinion is NOT telling people what they can and can't do. Making laws that restrict everyone from doing something IS the tyranny of the majority.

    That second paragraph sounds a lot like you're just playing the victim, and exaggerating the emphasis on that sub-issue more than other people have. Don't point to your troll post that you made after this as supporting evidence, because you basically asked for the discussion to go in that direction.

    I've failed to understand why you want to avoid Q4. I thought it was because you believe it'll make everyone lazy stoners, but you claimed that was trolling so I'm confused. Until I hear otherwise, I believe you can't handle letting adults make their own choices.

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  3. #228
    Lifer Imbeek's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    EDIT just saw Iglu's meaning. That makes more sense...

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    Last edited by Imbeek; 11-04-16 at 02:24 PM.

  4. #229
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    While not a local example, in states that haven't legalized it yet their Children's Services (largely influenced by the church) are using petty pot possession charges to literally take people's kids away. Because the church deems pot evil. This is not a laughing matter for many people and the sooner it is fully legalized (regulated or not), the better. Checkout the series "Weediquitte" on Viceland (they have an app), it might open your eyes on many issues related to weed and politics and business.

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  5. #230
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    I'm not following how you can claim legalization of a recreational substance is tyranny of the majority. Can't I claim it's the other way around? That the tyranny was what first restricted it? The whole point of protecting the minority opinion is NOT telling people what they can and can't do. Making laws that restrict everyone from doing something IS the tyranny of the majority.

    That second paragraph sounds a lot like you're just playing the victim, and exaggerating the emphasis on that sub-issue more than other people have. Don't point to your troll post that you made after this as supporting evidence, because you basically asked for the discussion to go in that direction.

    I've failed to understand why you want to avoid Q4. I thought it was because you believe it'll make everyone lazy stoners, but you claimed that was trolling so I'm confused. Until I hear otherwise, I believe you can't handle letting adults make their own choices.
    I'm not, another poster used this term when I stated that I'm fine with whatever the majority decided on this because it does not threaten the core of our nation either way in my mind.

    I was trying to make the point that this is a perfectly reasonable issue for majority rule.

    There are many things we all disagree with and live just fine with because the majority voted another way. For me this is likely to be one of them after next Tuesday.

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  6. #231
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Depends. I'm perfectly willing to be civil to the civil. Advocating racism and human rights violations isn't civil. So if we go on a ride, and talk about motorcycles and beer, it will be more civil. If we talk about the acceptability of destroying people's lives over the peaceful use of a plant, especially for people with melanin, perhaps not so much.

    nhbubba is nicer than I am; I'm losing my patience for advocates and apologists of wars and other methods of destroying people's lives.

    PhilB
    So if we stop for an ice cream and question 4 comes up and someone says they voted against it, is that an automatic leap for you to, "Advocating racism and human rights violations."?

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  7. #232
    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinned View Post
    So we've come full circle then. Remind us again why you voted "No," because your statements don't seem to support it.
    I thought he was pretty clear about his position.

    "It shouldn't be legal because it's illegal!"

    ( Just kidding... I've read many of your points. I just think most of them are either weak or misled.)

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 11-04-16 at 04:01 PM.
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  8. #233

    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Dude, I'm completely serious. I'm done discussing this issue on this site with SteveM. I believe he is simply pressing buttons at this point. I have much more important things to argue about. I thought you were already there.
    I was educating my self on taxes. And now I have a headache. But I understand bit better how the government rapes me for working more and harder and actually doing very good at my job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    I thought he was pretty clear about his position.

    "It shouldn't be legal because it's illegal!"
    Nailed it. We can close the thread now and for those who were undecided and of course so patriotic that registered to vote, go vote no.

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  9. #234
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    So if we stop for an ice cream and question 4 comes up and someone says they voted against it, is that an automatic leap for you to, "Advocating racism and human rights violations."?
    Yes, that's exactly what's going to happen. Instant rage, and off you go to the gulag. <rolleyes>

    PhilB

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  10. #235
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    more importantly, industrial hemp should be legal

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  11. #236
    Senior Member AEG's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyO View Post
    more importantly, industrial hemp should be legal
    Now that I google that I expect helicopters over my roof anytime now. Thank you Randy...

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  12. #237
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    This is not a defense of my NO vote.

    The following thought wandered into my empty, old, wrong-thinking, 1950's want me back head last night and despite my apparent onset of dementia I was able to recall it this morning.

    The state prohibits
    Then the state decriminalizes
    Then the state legalizes with regulation and taxation

    All the while the supporters believe progress is being made even as they hand over control to the state and permit the state entry into a taxation stream the state will never relinquish.

    If you truly believe it is a harmless plant and if your support for legalization is a principled position on the negative impacts on society arising from the current laws, then why would anything less than making it legal and giving the government no role be acceptable?

    It seems to me that the supporters are willing to trade punishment by law for punishment by tax (for eternity!!!) for the convenience of buying from a store and growing a bit of your own.

    Has anyone considered the possibility that the "state" will rejoice when this is passed because their long-term plan to use prohibition and criminal prosecution as a way of conditioning the populace to see regulation and eternal taxation as progress when it is really a victory for the state that will never be repealed.

    If this measure passes, it is possible there might be future liberalization of the regulations, but there will never be less taxation, only more.

    As I said, a thought, not a defense for my indefensibly racist NO vote.

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    Last edited by SteveM; 11-05-16 at 07:18 AM.

  13. #238
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Wait, so how will the "state" tax the population who largely consumes only their own plants?

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  14. #239
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Wait, so how will the "state" tax the population who largely consumes only their own plants?
    It won't, but what % of the market will be served this way. The state is getting it's tax claws into the market and will never let go.

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  15. #240
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Worked well enough for home brewing.

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  16. #241
    Get Weird! maxim_X's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    I'm going grow some plants just because. You know, for guests and things, like keeping a spare bedroom ready.

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  17. #242
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Again, a small % of the market. The state is making boatloads on alcohol excise taxes.

    Massachusetts Alcohol Taxes - Liquor, Wine, and Beer Taxes for 2016

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  18. #243
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by maxim_X View Post
    I'm going grow some plants just because. You know, for guests and things, like keeping a spare bedroom ready.
    This. The DOT won't let me smoke but I think it'd be fun to grow some at home anyway. I don't really care about the rest of it.

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  19. #244
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Again, a small % of the market. The state is making boatloads on alcohol excise taxes.

    Massachusetts Alcohol Taxes - Liquor, Wine, and Beer Taxes for 2016
    But at least people have the choice to brew or buy.

    Nobody will be forced to pay tax, unless they CHOOSE to purchase.

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  20. #245
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    You're right, but the state is "banking" on the convenience factor because "Kevin" would rather buy than grow.

    As with many things a small minority will be off the state's grid and the vast majority will be buying.

    I'm waiting for the larger philosophical defense of the state taxing this plant as real progress.

    Also, while I'm thinking of it,

    In suburbia a white man grows a few plants and gives a buddy a little bit to take home. The buddy gets pulled over.

    In the city a black man grows a few plants and gives a buddy a little bit to take home. The buddy gets pulled over.

    Any guesses as to the likelihood it plays out the same way for both?

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  21. #246
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Here I agree 100%, philosophically. And indeed that's why I argued about the taxation issue earlier in the thread.
    The reality is, though, that if you find yourself at the bottom of a deep hole, you have to climb out.
    Of course it's better not to have fallen in the hole in the first place, but this hole was started to be dug under us before any of us were born, and now we're in it.
    So, working on climbing out, one step at a time. The fact that the next step doesn't get us entirely out of the hole, doesn't mean we should stop climbing.

    PhilB

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  22. #247
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Here I agree 100%, philosophically. And indeed that's why I argued about the taxation issue earlier in the thread.
    The reality is, though, that if you find yourself at the bottom of a deep hole, you have to climb out.
    Of course it's better not to have fallen in the hole in the first place, but this hole was started to be dug under us before any of us were born, and now we're in it.
    So, working on climbing out, one step at a time. The fact that the next step doesn't get us entirely out of the hole, doesn't mean we should stop climbing.

    PhilB
    I agree, but once the state has its income stream it's forever.

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  23. #248
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    This is not a defense of my NO vote.

    If you truly believe it is a harmless plant and if your support for legalization is a principled position on the negative impacts on society arising from the current laws, then why would anything less than making it legal and giving the government no role be acceptable?

    It seems to me that the supporters are willing to trade punishment by law for punishment by tax (for eternity!!!) for the convenience of buying from a store and growing a bit of your own.
    Because waiting for full blown free and easy legalization will never happen. We've learned through many methods that, we have to compromise to win a vote. It's called politics and it's all we've got.

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  24. #249
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    I agree, but once the state has its income stream it's forever.
    And your alternative effective plan of action?

    Phil

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  25. #250
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    I agree, but once the state has its income stream it's forever.
    forever is a long time

    something I have never seen happen

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