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Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

  1. #176
    Lifer ilikenapalm's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana


    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    a. on balance it's current decriminalized status is fine by me, I don't thing it needs to be any easier.

    b. the question is poorly written and regulations too far from being developed.

    c. this is a battle of billionaires fighting to open access to a very lucrative market for them, not a fight to let the little guy grow a bit o' bud.

    d. 100% of tax revenues should be set aside by statute for treatment and recovery programs.

    We don't have to agree on any/all of these, but it is more than I hate weed, therefore others should not have it.

    Do you also support the prohibition of alcohol for the same reasons listed above?

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  2. #177
    Lifer
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    a. on balance it's current decriminalized status is fine by me, I don't thing it needs to be any easier.

    b. the question is poorly written and regulations too far from being developed.

    c. this is a battle of billionaires fighting to open access to a very lucrative market for them, not a fight to let the little guy grow a bit o' bud.

    d. 100% of tax revenues should be set aside by statute for treatment and recovery programs.

    We don't have to agree on any/all of these, but it is more than I hate weed, therefore others should not have it.
    All I'm seeing is excuses. I'm not trying to be rude. I honestly believe some people basically grasp at straws to try and justify the unjustifiable.

    a. Really? Why should people still be told they can't do it?
    b. Eh, yes. That's a reason to keep telling people they can't do it? Can't we vote yes, then modify it as needed later? I'm aware that there will be business interests post-legalization that influence any future changes. I'm just seeing it a worthy trade-off.
    c. As written now, I'm seeing both.
    d. Treatment and recovery programs.... for weed? I know some people might develop a bad habit, and might seek help (presumably for underlying issues) but you really think it's going to be enough to need 100% of the revenue? I don't like vice tax at all, but I'd rather vice task than keeping it illegal.

    Note how my response does not in any way address racial issues or swat teams.

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  3. #178
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    All taxes generated from "vices" should be directed toward treatment and recovery programs, IMO. This includes alcohol, cigs, gambling, etc. Otherwise, the state is merely profiting from the addictions.

    I get that people who want weed legalized want it now if if you oppose this question you NEVER want any movement on the issue and are making only excuses. There doesn't seem to be room for "slower, with a better bill and set of regulations" in the middle.

    Yes, we have legalized and taxed other vices, but that itself doesn't justify more, it's the "other kids are doing it, why can't I argument."

    Thanks for sticking to reasonable, and realistic questions, you've raised the dialogue, it feels weird here...

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  4. #179
    Lifer Imbeek's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    a. on balance it's current decriminalized status is fine by me, I don't thing it needs to be any easier.
    Since this is the second person in this thread holding this opinion, Id like to point out that while possession of small amounts has been decriminalized, NO FUCKING METHOD of coming INTO possession has been, besides medical marijuana

    So, if you are ok with the law as currently in effect, you are ok with police and prosecutors using their discretion to decide who to imprison not because the had weed, but because they had it handed to them by a friend or bought it, or, most disgusting of all, risked having their house, car, and cash forfeited because they had the audacity to grow some on their property, then bring some of it for free to a buddy.

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  5. #180
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    And I think gas taxes should go exclusively to cleaning up after gas and oil spills.
    And social security taxes should go to, you know, social security.

    Doesn't mean I think we should arrest people for using gas or for retiring.

    So far this all sounds like a long string of excuses. Very curious for a guy that didn't care for the debate in the first place.

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  6. #181
    Lifer JohnnyV's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana




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  7. #182
    Lifer
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    I get that people who want weed legalized want it now if if you oppose this question you NEVER want any movement on the issue and are making only excuses. There doesn't seem to be room for "slower, with a better bill and set of regulations" in the middle.

    Yes, we have legalized and taxed other vices, but that itself doesn't justify more, it's the "other kids are doing it, why can't I argument."
    I feel like having all the vice tax go to support programs will just build an industry begging for wasteful spending. Probably better to use some of it for other purposes, maybe that could indirectly be seen as helping people. Just as a quick example, maybe use it to fund school loans or job-prep programs. Granted, like I said, I don't want the vice tax at all.

    I think there was room for a slower, better bill and set of regulations 20 years ago. People are fed up with the bullshit. Basically, it's impatience. I'll admit, I'm pretty impatient about it too. I can't bring myself to vote against it to hold out for a better text. Let's step in the direction we need to go, then revise. It isn't that bad as written. It might even help to show the 'no' votes that the world won't come to an end, so they might be more likely to support the modifications. I see this is an imperfect change, but good enough to compromise on.

    Why wouldn't you compare it to other vices? If one can be legal, why shouldn't the other? What other reason could there be? If the substances have similar (or favorable) profiles, what good reason is there to ban it? Unless you're suggesting we should be banning cigarettes and alcohol too?

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  8. #183
    Lifer Imbeek's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    The bill establishes two bodies to administer and modify the details. The legislature will appoint themselves too.

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  9. #184
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Is weed a 'vice'?

    I mean its not an addictive substance like completely legal and passed out like free candy oxycontin....

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  10. #185
    Lifer
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by jwm2k3 View Post
    Is weed a 'vice'?

    I mean its not an addictive substance like completely legal and passed out like free candy oxycontin....
    Hookers are a vice, but they aren't addictive. Well... depends on who you ask. Vices are 'things bad people do' as determined by self-important assholes who aren't perfect, but are good at pretending they are. Once upon a time, I believe playboy magazine would have been a vice too.

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  11. #186
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by mickdaddy View Post
    I personally do not care for marijuana but I do find it funny how eager the supporters (the ones that are even registered to vote, that is) are to give even more power and money to the state. Giving them a golden ticket to do whatever they want in exchange for allowing the peasants to smoke their little plant (which they already do) is kind of a silly compromise in my eyes. I honestly think the current system of it being decriminalized is completely fine and how it should remain.

    Assuming the law enables citizens to freely grow their own marijuana (similar to home brewing), I will vote yes.
    Current law prohibits cultivation, even for yourself. This new law allows up to six plants and, you can give a way an ounce (the max you can travel with).
    I don't want to pay the prohibition price, if I can grow my own (and choose the variety and keep it steady).

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  12. #187
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Notice the "No on Q4" commercials are full of shit?
    More pot shops than McDonalds? Not at all. It sets up a commission to regulate it.
    SAVE THE CHILDREN! OMG

    - - - Updated - - -

    Pot is only easy to get if you're in high school. What about the rest of us, who are over 21?

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  13. #188
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Out of high school by 21? Wow. Everyone get a look at this over achiever.

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  14. #189
    BMW track whore e30addict's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by commuter View Post
    Notice the "No on Q4" commercials are full of shit?
    More pot shops than McDonalds? Not at all. It sets up a commission to regulate it.
    SAVE THE CHILDREN! OMG

    - - - Updated - - -

    Pot is only easy to get if you're in high school. What about the rest of us, who are over 21?
    I'm 40 and can count on one hand the number of times I've smoked, but im pretty sure i could have some by tomorrow night if I wanted?

    I can see not wanting to deal with shady people and controlling your own supply though.

    Edit: The awesome thing about not having cable is not dealing with the t.v. commercials this cycle. Bliss.

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    Last edited by e30addict; 11-02-16 at 06:37 PM.
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  15. #190
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    I'm trying really hard and failing to stay out of this.

    If you think decriminalization is enough, take a look at what can happen in decriminalization states. San Diego Police Seize Family’s Bank Accounts Because the Dad Ran a Medical Marijuana Business - Hit & Run : Reason.com

    Decriminalization still gives them ever opportunity to violate you however the see fit.

    Here's another, possibly more pertinent example. . . Massachusetts cops raided an 81-year-old’s home to cut down a single medical marijuana plant - Vox

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  16. #191
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    "Don't pass this, wait for a better law written by people who don't want it passed the next time"

    -The last time this was on the ballot.


    Sorry, the naysayers had their chance to "propose better legislation". They didn't. Now they are crying about it. Too bad. So sad. WILL OF THE PEOPLE, MOTHERFUCKER.

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  17. #192
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    "Don't pass this, wait for a better law written by people who don't want it passed the next time"

    -The last time this was on the ballot.


    Sorry, the naysayers had their chance to "propose better legislation". They didn't. Now they are crying about it. Too bad. So sad. WILL OF THE PEOPLE, MOTHERFUCKER.
    Most of the naysayers already have their choice of legislation in place, it's illegal, period. Not exactly the best legislation, imo, but it was what they wanted. They didn't feel the need to change it.

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  18. #193
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Out of high school by 21? Wow. Everyone get a look at this over achiever.
    The over 21 refers to the aspect of this new law, not rocket scientists like you. Get a clue.

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  19. #194

    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by ilikenapalm View Post
    Do you also support the prohibition of alcohol for the same reasons listed above?
    I stopped trying days ago. Stevens problem isn't with the drug or its drawbacks. It's admitting that he's wrong. And it's not a my opinion vs someone else's. It's that every bs argument he brings up has nothing to do with the topic any more. He is a very intelligent man, extremely well educated and it's hard to look back after saying SO MUCH and even think, hmmm maybe what I said isn't right.

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  20. #195

    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    All I'm seeing is excuses. I'm not trying to be rude. I honestly believe some people basically grasp at straws to try and justify the unjustifiable.

    a. Really? Why should people still be told they can't do it?
    b. Eh, yes. That's a reason to keep telling people they can't do it? Can't we vote yes, then modify it as needed later? I'm aware that there will be business interests post-legalization that influence any future changes. I'm just seeing it a worthy trade-off.
    c. As written now, I'm seeing both.
    d. Treatment and recovery programs.... for weed? I know some people might develop a bad habit, and might seek help (presumably for underlying issues) but you really think it's going to be enough to need 100% of the revenue? I don't like vice tax at all, but I'd rather vice task than keeping it illegal.

    Note how my response does not in any way address racial issues or swat teams.
    Ok you said it much better than me, I just don't have the time nor the energy to convince Steve of anything. I don't care at all. I wish it was a more pleasant conversation.

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  21. #196
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by tsorfas View Post
    Ok you said it much better than me, I just don't have the time nor the energy to convince Steve of anything. I don't care at all. I wish it was a more pleasant conversation.
    You could have simply cancelled out the effect of my wrongheaded thinking if you had registered to vote and voted.

    There's no need to change minds, we each decide, we vote and we accept the will of the majority.

    By all indications, this question will pass, my life will go on and the world will not end.

    That doesn't mean I have to agree with it, but this has never been a life or death issue for me.

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  22. #197
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    I'm trying really hard and failing to stay out of this.

    If you think decriminalization is enough, take a look at what can happen in decriminalization states. San Diego Police Seize Family’s Bank Accounts Because the Dad Ran a Medical Marijuana Business - Hit & Run : Reason.com

    Decriminalization still gives them ever opportunity to violate you however the see fit.

    Here's another, possibly more pertinent example. . . Massachusetts cops raided an 81-year-old’s home to cut down a single medical marijuana plant - Vox
    You are correct. In a perfect world this would not be enough. But, it's a step forward. Until the feds reschedule, I'm at least going to vote for a better way at the state level. The biggest problem is, we have to satisfy the majority of voters to get a law passed, so it involves compromise.

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  23. #198
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    ... There's no need to change minds, we each decide, we vote and we accept the will of the majority. ...
    Wow. That's weird thinking.

    a) If we are to accept the will of the majority, then the most important thing is to change minds -- as many as possible.

    b) Sometimes the will of the majority is ethically wrong and should not be accepted. That's a major theme of our country's Constitution -- to try to protect individual rights from the tyranny of the majority.

    PhilB

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  24. #199
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    At some point, people believe what they believe and voting sorts it out.

    What we're missing here is that there are a range of consequences to the tyranny of the majority. If the majority's view threatens the nature of our democracy, protections need to be in place. If the issue is one of preference or convenience, then the majority should have their way.

    As much has been made about this issue, and as much as I believe in my NO vote, if the measure passes I'm not going to be in fear for our democracy. In my mind it is not a big deal but on balance I think no is better than yes.

    I've been pilloried for this, both for not thinking it is not a big deal and for not siding with the YES vote if I don't think it a big deal. Apparently my opinion about this and my relative apathy about the outcome has marked me as the generational leader of a vast conspiracy to unjustly imprison young black men. I think there are reasons to oppose this and reasons to support it, but a lot of the supporters here don't see it as an issue where both sides have points. To them opposition can only be equated with idiocy and met with attack.

    I generally believe and hope that some of this was just keyboard rhetoric and that if we pulled into Seacoast for a ride the face to face would be a bit more tempered and civil. Perhaps not, but I've tried to voice my opinion, I made a few jabs and I had a little fun with the other side, but I was never angry about this and as adamant and apparently upset as some were in their responses.


    Regardless of the outcome on this question, life will go on.

    We'll know next Tuesday, but all indications are that it will pass, unless the supporters start celebrating early and get too lazy to vote

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  25. #200
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
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    Re: Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

    Just an FYI bringing this full circle... Saw elsewhere today in MA you are 3 times as likely to get arrested for something related to marijuana if you are black vs. white. Just a friendly follow up on the racist underpinnings we have here in our beautiful and perfect commonwealth... Q4: Legalize Recreational Marijuana

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