Welcome to NESR! Most features of this site require registration, including replying to threads, sending private messages, starting new threads, and uploading files. Click here to register.

Results 1 to 20 of 20

Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

  1. #1
    Senior Member TwelveGaugeSage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Palmer, MA
    Posts
    479

    Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules


    This one is local and a very interesting debate topic(to me at least): Transgender track stars spark debate

    This is a hyper complex issue. On the surface, both sides make some compelling points. It isn't particularly fair to let transwomen compete against women, but it isn't particularly fair to make them compete against men. It's downright stupid, in my opinion, when transmen are not permitted compete with men, but transwomen are different problem. The primary reason that women's sports exist is that women aren't born with the same physical tools as men making competition between them inherently unfair.

    But how do you determine a man and a women? Even if you go with chromosomal sex you run into problems. If a person is born with XX chromosomes(see "XX male syndrome"), has a penis, looks like a man, and identifies as a man, should he be able to compete with the women because chromosomally he is one? Conversely, a person can be born XY(see "Swyer syndrome"), have a vagina, look like a female, and identify as a female. Should this person, despite being chromosomally a male, be able to compete with women?

    I don't know if anyone wants to wade into this one. I just thought it was a pretty interesting problem.

    0 Not allowed!

  2. #2
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Pittsfield, NH
    Age
    56
    Posts
    2,968

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    I see having respect for individual humans as being the more important issue.
    In general, I support treating people how they would like to be treated.

    I see foot racing as a completely inconsequential and meaningless activity at this point in human history.
    So I don't particularly care about fairness in running competition.
    Let the governing bodies of those sports do as they wish.

    PhilB

    1 Not allowed!
    "A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper." -- Ludwig von Mises
    1993 Ducati Monster M900; 265,000 miles -- killed by minivan 30Oct17

  3. #3
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    the fairest of havens
    Age
    40
    Posts
    12,733

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    I feel like there was a trans wrestler that sparked this debate prior, strictly speaking as a point of order.

    There are now a couple, with likely another very soon, B class female racers in NETRA. They line up with the rest of the B field in their given displacement class. Bring it on.

    A couple years ago I remember seeing that FDNY had hired their first trans female firefighter. Her official statement was "so trans, so what", and that pretty much sums up my views. If she can do the job, who are we to have fuckall to say?
    Back to sports, where I'll concede your point Sage, things are a little stickier there. I don't really have strong feelings one way or the next in that regard. We've definitely got some learning to do as a society.

    2 Not allowed!
    Cliff's Cycles KTM
    NETRA enduro B-vet
    Close your eyes, look deep in your soul, step outside yourself and let your mind go.

  4. #4
    Lifer
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Bristol County
    Age
    32
    Posts
    2,782

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    I was wondering how much significance gender could make with running since I didn't think leg-based endurance would matter.

    Based on a quick look at the top15 finishers of the 2015, 2016, and 2017 Boston marathon, all of the the top15 women would place behind the top15 men. Direct link for 2017. There were more men in the race, but under the age of 39, 55% of the finishers were women. Not exactly a proper statistical analysis here, but I think it's enough to suggest gender probably matters.

    This type of issue leaves me scratching my head. I don't know how you handle it fairly. But I think the debate also doesn't directly acknowledge that there are some people born with natural characteristics that give them an advantage. It's not like one born-male competing against another born-male is perfectly equal.

    0 Not allowed!
    02 Aprilia Futura
    86 GPz900R

  5. #5
    Senior Member TwelveGaugeSage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Palmer, MA
    Posts
    479

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    I was wondering how much significance gender could make with running since I didn't think leg-based endurance would matter.

    Based on a quick look at the top15 finishers of the 2015, 2016, and 2017 Boston marathon, all of the the top15 women would place behind the top15 men. Direct link for 2017. There were more men in the race, but under the age of 39, 55% of the finishers were women. Not exactly a proper statistical analysis here, but I think it's enough to suggest gender probably matters.
    All of the military branches physical fitness tests still have separate run times for women and men as far as I know. I think if you looked at all track and field events, you wouldn't find any where the top women would be competitive with the men. The men's pole vault record is a meter higher than the women's. I would venture to guess shot put or one of the other throwing events would be closest.

    This type of issue leaves me scratching my head. I don't know how you handle it fairly. But I think the debate also doesn't directly acknowledge that there are some people born with natural characteristics that give them an advantage. It's not like one born-male competing against another born-male is perfectly equal.
    This is very true. You will always have people born with better physical "weapons" than others in the same sex. But it begs the question of, if you are going to use it in this debate, couldn't you use the same argument in a debate to get rid of women's sports altogether and just integrate them into men's? I doubt you will find too many people who agree with that after some critical thought. As far as I know there is no rule saying women cannot play in the MLB, NBA, NHL, or NFL, yet there still has never been one that members of those organizations felt could compete at that level. Jackie Tonawanda and Billie Jean King aside, that leaves women as simply left out in the end.

    0 Not allowed!

  6. #6
    Lifer Stromper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Eastern Ct
    Posts
    3,222

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    Its crude but

    Penis one group

    No penis the other group

    0 Not allowed!
    The calculus of hate

    It is not that I should win it is that you should lose
    It is not that I succeed it is that you fail
    It is not that I should live it is that you should die

  7. #7
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    The desert
    Posts
    1,628

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromper View Post
    Its crude but

    Penis one group

    No penis the other group
    Where do those on PED’s go? Everywhere.

    Not sure what the answer is but it isn’t this simple.

    0 Not allowed!

  8. #8
    Lifer Not Sure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    1,215

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromper View Post
    Its crude but

    Penis one group

    No penis the other group
    What about hermaphrodites?

    0 Not allowed!

  9. #9
    Lifer
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Bristol County
    Age
    32
    Posts
    2,782

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    This is very true. You will always have people born with better physical "weapons" than others in the same sex. But it begs the question of, if you are going to use it in this debate, couldn't you use the same argument in a debate to get rid of women's sports altogether and just integrate them into men's?
    In a perfect, hypothetical world where we understand what makes all of us different, yes. It'd be neat if we could somehow scale our results against our genetic/biologic make up. But that isn't realistic. And probably takes some of the 'magic' out of the sport in terms of having 20 people run across the finish line and the person in 21 position is declared first place winner after scaling.

    I don't think I'd want to see people of all ages and genders compete in a single class today. I can see why we separate them, and why we separate in to age groups as well. Even if they're an imperfect system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stromper View Post
    Its crude but

    Penis one group

    No penis the other group
    What if it's post-op? And they're taking estrogen? No penis, and hormones that make them less competitive against men - but they were still born a man. To keep them in the men's class means they're basically playing with a handicap. To put them in the women's class one might still have concerns over bone structure providing a slight edge against women, like height. Though I believe HRT does have some subtle impacts on bone structure.

    0 Not allowed!
    02 Aprilia Futura
    86 GPz900R

  10. #10
    Lifer Stromper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Eastern Ct
    Posts
    3,222

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    IF they have completed sex reassignment "no penis" then they are "no penis"

    I am sorry that some have a more difficult time than most people but play the hand your dealt

    Very few of us WIN the genetic lotto, I am shorter and stubbier and suck at sports than most and am not happy about it
    I like to think I developed an aggressive brain which compensated somewhat

    However I wish those with talent etc. to have a wonderful time not burdened with "Social Engineering"

    0 Not allowed!
    The calculus of hate

    It is not that I should win it is that you should lose
    It is not that I succeed it is that you fail
    It is not that I should live it is that you should die

  11. #11
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Candia, NH
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,123

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    I would have figured that in a physical competition, your sex would determine which group you compete in. The physical advantages of a male or female are related to their sex and not their identified gender.

    If you are XX, you compete with the women.
    If you are XY, you compete with the men.

    0 Not allowed!
    "...i would seriously bite somebody right in the balls..." -bump909

  12. #12
    Senior Member TwelveGaugeSage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Palmer, MA
    Posts
    479

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by ZX-12R View Post
    I would have figured that in a physical competition, your sex would determine which group you compete in. The physical advantages of a male or female are related to their sex and not their identified gender.

    If you are XX, you compete with the women.
    If you are XY, you compete with the men.
    On its face, that sounds reasonable, but a man with XX Male Syndrome would dominate those competitions and a woman with Swyer Syndrome would be competing against men.

    0 Not allowed!

  13. #13
    Posting Freak joeswamp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Swampscott, MA
    Posts
    980

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    There was that whole controversy a few years back about Caster Semenya -- she's a South African athlete with IIRC a chromosomal abnormality. She has male testosterone levels and basically does not appear to be female, but she does have female body parts (not sure if completely functional).

    I think she now has to take testosterone suppressing drugs in order to remain eligible for competition.

    0 Not allowed!
    Joe
    04 Thruxton (Street)
    01 SV650 (Track)
    75 CB400F (Future Vintage Racer)
    68 BSA Royal Star (Garage Floor Lubricator)

  14. #14
    Lifer ZX-12R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Candia, NH
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,123

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    On its face, that sounds reasonable, but a man with XX Male Syndrome would dominate those competitions and a woman with Swyer Syndrome would be competing against men.
    Now you are starting to get into genetic abnormalities that are most often detrimental to a person's physical capabilities. Face value would still be adequate for the far vast majority of all players involved. Considering the symptoms associated with the disorder, it's unlikely that you will find an XX male competing at elite levels in the first place. If they are, they're likely expressing strong masculine phenotypes and wouldn't have been considered female in the first place.

    A genetic male with Swyer syndrome would likely have been raised a female and the condition wouldn't have been noticed until they are past the point where puberty would have started. Hormone treatments would likely be for a female making it highly unlikely they would ever be competing as a male.


    I doubt any sanctioning bodies will be asking for athletes' karyotypes any time soon.

    1 Not allowed!
    Last edited by ZX-12R; 06-16-18 at 10:54 PM.
    "...i would seriously bite somebody right in the balls..." -bump909

  15. #15
    Rider. Just a rider... DucDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Southern NH
    Age
    68
    Posts
    8,765

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    Interesting times indeed...

    0 Not allowed!
    "A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.”
    Muhammad Ali.

  16. #16
    Senior Member TwelveGaugeSage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Palmer, MA
    Posts
    479

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by ZX-12R View Post


    I doubt any sanctioning bodies will be asking for athletes' karyotypes any time soon.
    Maybe, but isn't that what they did to Caster Semenya, as mentioned by joeswamp? I'm sure XX males get into athletics, and as far as I understand it, can be more or less normal, functioning men, except generally(always?) sterile. Most would never consider competing against women, even if they knew they had the abnormality that could let them do so.

    As for Swyer syndrome, I agree that they would not be competing as a male, but under your rules, they couldn't compete as a female either.

    An interesting case involving Swyer syndrome is: Stanisława Walasiewicz - Wikipedia

    Do you think that intersex women with internal testis, like Semenya and Walasiewicz should be barred from competing against other women?

    0 Not allowed!

  17. #17
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Dorchester, MA / Mt Sunapee, NH
    Posts
    9,700

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    The Olympics have a long history on this.

    Currently “Transgender athletes who identified themselves as female would be allowed to compete in that category as long as their testosterone levels were below 10 nanomoles per liter for at least 12 months prior to the competition. ”

    0 Not allowed!
    1975 BMW R90/6 | 2008 Triumph Tiger 1050 ABS | 2009 Honda CRF100F | 2009 Yamaha TrailWay 200 | 2012 Yamaha WR250R | 2016 Honda CB500FA | 2016 Suzuki GSX-R750

  18. #18
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    MoonTown
    Posts
    4,675

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    Slipery slope. So you force one competitor to reduce their testosterone, are you going to allow another to increase their rates due to an abnormality in their genetic make up? How "equal" do you want the playing field? I think you need to use the science we have to categorize a competitor. You have XX but tremendous testosterone rates? Advantage freakshow. I mean, do you hobble the dude that can run a 4 flat 40? He has a physical ability over others for what ever genetic reason.

    OR

    We just need to completely level the playing field and allow rampant drug use.

    0 Not allowed!
    Dad's Dream: Earn enough money to live the life that his wife and kids do.

  19. #19
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    The desert
    Posts
    1,628

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Falko View Post

    We just need to completely level the playing field and allow rampant drug use.
    This is the system already in place. The ‘testing’ is a joke. Therefore, let the trannies compete wherever they want, who cares.

    1 Not allowed!

  20. #20
    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Danvers, MA
    Age
    39
    Posts
    36,714

    Re: Transgender Track Stars Spark Debate Over 'Unfair' Sports Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Not Sure View Post
    What about hermaphrodites?
    According to him, there's no such thing. He's not a doctor but he IS on the internet, so he must be right.

    0 Not allowed!
    -Pete LRRS/CCS #82 - ECK Racing, TonysTrackDays, Ironstone Ventures
    GMD Computrack Boston | Pine Motorparts/PBE Specialists | Phoenix Graphics | Woodcraft | Street & Competition | MTag-Pirelli | OnTrack Media

    The Garage: '03 Tuono | '06 SV650

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •