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Trump

  1. #3426
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Trump


    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    My precursor for wanting "qualified people" making these decisions applies too. I know that's hard for you to understand, and you're gonna say it should be up to the states to decide who and what makes "qualified or competent" but you know what I mean: people who don't suck.
    Which, in our current situation is difficult to really find on both sides of the aisle.
    If I find a shining example of a true statesman, I'll let you know.
    Once again, "qualified" how? By whom? Using what criteria? Your definition of "people who don't suck" is not likely to be the same as mine, and both will be very different from the various definitions of Trump, Hillary, Pat Robertson, Bernie Sanders, etc.

    It shouldn't even be up to the states unless it must be. ANY decision about who is "qualified or competent" is freighted with bias and special interests, and will be fought over incessantly by those who want to control the outcome for their own purposes. I'm proposing that the baseline is the assumption that adults are qualified and competent to make their own decisions for their own lives, unless and until that individual person proves himself otherwise. That's what is known as "liberty", or "freedom".

    You advocate an authoritarian state in which all decisions for everyone are made by people who think like you and would act in ways of which you would approve, but (a) there's no guarantee that such a structure will be run by people who think like you, and (b) even if it is, the millions of people who do not think like you will want to have something to say about that. Again, that's what is known as "liberty", or "freedom". Supposedly an ideal in this culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by number9 View Post
    The federal government does some things relatively well, if there are proper incentives and oversight in place.

    The idea that state governments (or parents!) is a panacea to the DOE's failings is.. well, it's an idea.
    "Panacea", no. I think of it more as "mitigation of damage". The smaller the scale, the lower down the power is devolved, the less damage a bad decision or a human failure can cause. Especially up at the federal level, one bad person or decision can cause a huge amount of trouble, and often does.

    Again, I cannot grasp how anyone can look at the last election, at Trump and Hillary and Sanders, and think that reducing their impact and devolving as much of their power as possible could be anything but a good idea.

    PhilB

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    Last edited by PhilB; Yesterday at 02:29 PM.
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  2. #3427
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    Re: Trump

    I think there's an underlying debate issue here that goes beyond education. Should the federal government oversee rules preventing discrimination, and if so, should the protected classes be expanded? I think even if the states individually handled education, federal discrimination rules still apply. But those rules only apply to the defined protected classes. Leaving the opportunity to legally refuse a gay person, or on the basis of what neighborhood/income bracket you're from.

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  3. #3428
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Once again, "qualified" how? By whom? Using what criteria? Your definition of "people who don't suck" is not likely to be the same as mine, and both will be very different from the various definitions of Trump, Hillary, Pat Robertson, Bernie Sanders, etc.

    It shouldn't even be up to the states unless it must be. ANY decision about who is "qualified or competent" is freighted with bias and special interests, and will be fought over incessantly by those who want to control the outcome for their own purposes. I'm proposing that the baseline is the assumption that adults are qualified and competent to make their own decisions for their own lives, unless and until that individual person proves himself otherwise. That's what is known as "liberty", or "freedom".

    You advocate an authoritarian state in which all decisions for everyone are made by people who think like you and would act in ways of which you would approve, but (a) there's no guarantee that such a structure will be run by people who think like you, and (b) even if it is, the millions of people who do not think like you will want to have something to say about that. Again, that's what is known as "liberty", or "freedom". Supposedly an ideal in this culture.

    "Panacea", no. I think of it more as "mitigation of damage". The smaller the scale, the lower down the power is devolved, the less damage a bad decision or a human failure can cause. Especially up at the federal level, one bad person or decision can cause a huge amount of trouble, and often does.

    Again, I cannot grasp how anyone can look at the last election, at Trump and Hillary and Sanders, and think that reducing their impact and devolving as much of their power as possible could be anything but a good idea.

    PhilB
    I absolutely do not advocate for authoritarianism.
    we've had this conversation before. I'm not about making glue sticks here today. I think we both want the same end result, but differ on what the best road to get there is. I'm happy to agree to disagree and leave that at that.

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  4. #3429
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Once again, "qualified" how? By whom? Using what criteria? Your definition of "people who don't suck" is not likely to be the same as mine, and both will be very different from the various definitions of Trump, Hillary, Pat Robertson, Bernie Sanders, etc.

    It shouldn't even be up to the states unless it must be. ANY decision about who is "qualified or competent" is freighted with bias and special interests, and will be fought over incessantly by those who want to control the outcome for their own purposes. I'm proposing that the baseline is the assumption that adults are qualified and competent to make their own decisions for their own lives, unless and until that individual person proves himself otherwise. That's what is known as "liberty", or "freedom".

    You advocate an authoritarian state in which all decisions for everyone are made by people who think like you and would act in ways of which you would approve, but (a) there's no guarantee that such a structure will be run by people who think like you, and (b) even if it is, the millions of people who do not think like you will want to have something to say about that. Again, that's what is known as "liberty", or "freedom". Supposedly an ideal in this culture.

    "Panacea", no. I think of it more as "mitigation of damage". The smaller the scale, the lower down the power is devolved, the less damage a bad decision or a human failure can cause. Especially up at the federal level, one bad person or decision can cause a huge amount of trouble, and often does.

    Again, I cannot grasp how anyone can look at the last election, at Trump and Hillary and Sanders, and think that reducing their impact and devolving as much of their power as possible could be anything but a good idea.

    PhilB
    Dude, fucking judicial branch. 1/3 of our government. That entire part of our system RELIES on qualified and competent individuals as judges and justices. Our constitution recognizes the need for qualified and competent individuals to oversee the legal system.

    How you manage to turn ANY political thread into your own libertarian tirade is impressive

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  5. #3430
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    y'all need to see this video. this guy is a fucking ASSHOLE.
    Twitter. I have no idea who this twitterer is, but the video speaks for itself.
    this is how our country is on display in front of the world. He also reportedly handed out invoices to all the other countries to make everyone pay (the US) their fair share. this, from a man who's dodged every tax burden, contractor, and schemed his way through how many bankruptcies?

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    Last edited by Chippertheripper; Yesterday at 03:01 PM.
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  6. #3431
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    What an embarrassment to our country. He's just not a respectable human being.

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  7. #3432
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    What an embarrassment to our country. He's just not a respectable human being.
    no, he's a total piece of shit, which was my personal issue with him (and the reason I couldn't vote for him) long before any political motives came into play.

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  8. #3433
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I absolutely do not advocate for authoritarianism.
    we've had this conversation before. I'm not about making glue sticks here today. I think we both want the same end result, but differ on what the best road to get there is. I'm happy to agree to disagree and leave that at that.
    When you advocate to have "qualified people" with the power to make decisions for others, that's EXACTLY authoritarianism.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Dude, fucking judicial branch. 1/3 of our government. That entire part of our system RELIES on qualified and competent individuals as judges and justices. Our constitution recognizes the need for qualified and competent individuals to oversee the legal system.

    How you manage to turn ANY political thread into your own libertarian tirade is impressive
    Dude, juries. That's WHY we have those -- to have that entire part of our system RELY on UNqualified individuals as judges and justices. To NOT require "qualified and competent individuals" to oversee the legal system. Look at how judges are appointed, and by whom, and the reasons for that should become obvious.

    And it requires no "turning" whatsoever, when every political thread is full of people advocating authoritarianism, violation of individual rights, un-Constitutional behavior, federal overreach, government control of everyone and everything -- against that tide, any attempt to present another point of view, based on liberty and principle and individual rights, is going to look like a "libertarian tirade" to you command-and-control types.

    PhilB

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    no, he's a total piece of shit, which was my personal issue with him (and the reason I couldn't vote for him) long before any political motives came into play.
    Here, we are in agreement.

    PhilB

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  9. #3434
    Lifer
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Dude, juries. That's WHY we have those -- to have that entire part of our system RELY on UNqualified individuals as judges and justices. To NOT require "qualified and competent individuals" to oversee the legal system. Look at how judges are appointed, and by whom, and the reasons for that should become obvious.
    Except juries, as far as I know, don't play a role in constitutional interpretation at the supreme court.

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  10. #3435
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Glad the jury struck down the travel ban today. So many juries are doing that. Also glad the juries are competent and qualified to provide a fair trial for those uneducated, incompetent and unqualified judges to oversee.

    Gunna keep going down this road, Phil?

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  11. #3436
    Lifer
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Glad the jury struck down the travel ban today. So many juries are doing that. Also glad the juries are competent and qualified to provide a fair trial for those uneducated, incompetent and unqualified judges to oversee.

    Gunna keep going down this road, Phil?
    I think some mixture is ideal. In several common debate topics I see a trend that the people making decisions are too insulated. A jury which truly represents our peers of all walks of life makes sense but I'm not sure I want them handling everything. And that's why even in a jury trial the Judge still has an important role.

    Can't there be some middle ground? A voluntary Federal standard designed by participants from the states. It should be simple and extendable. Ideally it would be respected enough that it'd be seen as ridiculous to suggest not use it and re-invent the wheel. A committee of state representatives would be in charge of updating/changing the standard.

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  12. #3437
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    Except juries, as far as I know, don't play a role in constitutional interpretation at the supreme court.
    True, but:
    (a) The SCOTUS doesn't Constitutionally really have that power, either,
    (b) The cases before the SCOTUS come from lower courts, and may involve juries, and
    (c) As it stands, the "qualified and competent people" on the SCOTUS, some of the most vetted people there are anywhere, get it wrong about half the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Glad the jury struck down the travel ban today. So many juries are doing that. Also glad the juries are competent and qualified to provide a fair trial for those uneducated, incompetent and unqualified judges to oversee.

    Gunna keep going down this road, Phil?
    Sure. You keep spouting silly things, and I'll watch and occasionally comment.

    PhilB

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  13. #3438
    Lifer
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    True, but:
    (a) The SCOTUS doesn't Constitutionally really have that power, either,
    (b) The cases before the SCOTUS come from lower courts, and may involve juries, and
    (c) As it stands, the "qualified and competent people" on the SCOTUS, some of the most vetted people there are anywhere, get it wrong about half the time.
    Do you think a better system could be used? Do you want a jury of peers to replace SCOTUS? If so, do you think that's going to have a higher success rate?

    I get your concerns about authoritarian structure, but at some point someone intelligent needs to be making decisions.

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  14. #3439
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by number9 View Post
    The federal government does some things relatively well, if there are proper incentives and oversight in place.
    Agreed. But dictating standardized testing in school or else no money for you! is not one of those things.

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  15. #3440
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    Do you think a better system could be used? Do you want a jury of peers to replace SCOTUS? If so, do you think that's going to have a higher success rate?
    I didn't say that. Indeed, I think the courts should (and sometimes even do) perform a valuable service in evaluating laws for Constitutionality. I was only pointing out there that The Iglu's claim that juries don't have a role in that is not entirely relevant. Also, juries sometimes do, and have had, a role in that. Jury nullification was a significant factor in abolition of slavery, and in the end of Prohibition.

    What I would want is the judges who make these decisions to not be appointed by the people they are overseeing. That's a conflict of interest, and bears directly on how often the courts fail to uphold the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    I get your concerns about authoritarian structure, but at some point someone intelligent needs to be making decisions.
    I am far less concerned that someone intelligent be making decisions, as I am that someone ethical be making decisions. And that is a YU-U-UGE failure point in this system, and in governance in general.

    PhilB

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