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Trump

  1. #3776
    Lifer
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    Re: Trump


    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I''m saying free speech shouldn't contain the right to violate someone else's human rights.
    And I think I've made that pretty clear.
    So... like threatening to harm someone? Or do you mean like someone shouldn't be able to espouse ignorant beliefs?

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  2. #3777
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I didn't ever say anything about THOUGHTS. I spoke of the direct action of speech.
    You have hateful thoughts? Keep them to yourself. When you start hurling words aloud is where you cross the line, in the instance of my original point. Similar to some of the other speech that isn't free under the constitution.
    I know some of you don't agree with what I'm saying, and that's cool.
    What I don't understand is why it's so difficult for some of you to grasp the point.
    better begin more rigid censorship of television programming

    say goodbye to artistic expression

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    RandyO
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  3. #3778
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    So... like threatening to harm someone? Or do you mean like someone shouldn't be able to espouse ignorant beliefs?
    Do I really need to define hate speech? Because you've seemingly already confused that with what is already considered assault. You know what a hate crime is right?

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  4. #3779
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    You know what a hate crime is right?
    A bullshit charge enhancer that says if I kill you with a knife for one reason it's more killy than if I kill you with a knife for another?

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  5. #3780
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    A bullshit charge enhancer that says if I kill you with a knife for one reason it's more killy than if I kill you with a knife for another?
    Quoted for posterity.

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  6. #3781
    Newbie TwelveGaugeSage's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    A bullshit charge enhancer that says if I kill you with a knife for one reason it's more killy than if I kill you with a knife for another?
    We do this outside of hate crimes. States vary this a little, but if you grab your gun, go to a Nazi's house and shoot him 18 times in the chest, that's first degree murder. If you are walking down the street and a Nazi comes up to you and starts spewing his racist bullshit in your face, and you pull out your legal carry weapon and shoot him 2 times in the face, it's second degree murder. If you go home and find your wife giving a blowjob to a Nazi sitting on your couch and you slit his throat its voluntary manslaughter. If you have a bit too much to drink and plow your R6 into a Nazi on his way to protest the removal of his civil war participation trophy statues, and you take his head off, it's involuntary manslaughter.

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  7. #3782
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    What I see is people who aren't terribly sad to see shitty people get assaulted. Doesn't mean the general public is advocating for it. There's not a strong outcry to drop charges on those who get arrested for violence, destruction, etc. It's an exaggerated and self-affirming view which presumes/implies all liberals support antifa or similar groups/actions.

    Seems oddly pessimistic.
    Jesus Christ Dr. Phil, thanks.

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  8. #3783
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    Re: Trump

    So, would the charges be any different if you replace nazi with random other person?

    I get pre-meditated vs unmeditated vs unintentional, but if the only thing you have triggering additional penalties is you think I did it is 'cause their skin is a different color, or their part of a currently favored group, so what? We're talking murder, I don't see any variation in the end result, if I did it 'cause your gay vs 'cause you wear bright colored hawaiian shirts, how does that change the fact that I killed you? Pre-meditated vs unmeditated vs unintentional should be what's in play.

    Now, if you want to argue the punishment for general, no tacked on multiplier charges murder is too low for deterrent effect, I'll have that conversation.

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  9. #3784
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    Re: Trump

    My sense is "hate crime" statutes are intended to increase the deterrent effect through harsher sentences and public outcry/shame.

    In that way they probably do nothing to change the behavior of the true believers in whatever hateful ideology we choose to discuss. But they may deter the more "casual" hater.

    In another place far from NESR, a friend posted a comment about the futility of hating hate and the far greater utility of living with love.

    Hating hate is not better than just plain hate.

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  10. #3785
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Hating hate sounds very similar to be intolerant to intolerance.

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  11. #3786
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    Hating hate sounds very similar to be intolerant to intolerance.
    It is a bit of a paradox.

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  12. #3787
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Back to Trump land.



    So what are your thoughts now that Bannon is gone? Less white-power-sympathy? More tirades? Less phake gnu's?

    The man has no ability to have independent rational thought, so finding out who his confidant and trusted adviser to replace Bannon should tell us generally where this is headed.

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  13. #3788
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    I'm guessing Bannon and Breitbart are going to go into attack mode.
    How 45* will react is anybody's guess. I'm personally not too confident that he'll listen to Kelly, who appears to be the only adult in the room down there.

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  14. #3789
    Lifer typeone's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    my money is on Rabbi Haskel Lookstein as the replacement Chief Strategist.

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  15. #3790
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    Re: Trump

    Words aren't a triggering event in my mind. Stand up and say any crazy shit you'd like, but do not obstruct my path, do not get in my face and do not interfere with my right to peacefully disagree with you.

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  16. #3791
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    We do this outside of hate crimes. States vary this a little, but if you grab your gun, go to a Nazi's house and shoot him 18 times in the chest, that's first degree murder. If you are walking down the street and a Nazi comes up to you and starts spewing his racist bullshit in your face, and you pull out your legal carry weapon and shoot him 2 times in the face, it's second degree murder. If you go home and find your wife giving a blowjob to a Nazi sitting on your couch and you slit his throat its voluntary manslaughter. If you have a bit too much to drink and plow your R6 into a Nazi on his way to protest the removal of his civil war participation trophy statues, and you take his head off, it's involuntary manslaughter.

    that's not how I've observed the "hate crime" enhancement work

    not long after the hate crime law was passed here in NH, a father caught his underage daughter in bed with an older guy and began to beat on him, just happened that what should have been statutory rape on the guy the was in his daughter's bed got turned into aggravated hate assault on the father cause the guy in bed with his 15 year old daughter had a different color skin.

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    RandyO
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  17. #3792
    Newbie TwelveGaugeSage's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyO View Post
    that's not how I've observed the "hate crime" enhancement work

    not long after the hate crime law was passed here in NH, a father caught his underage daughter in bed with an older guy and began to beat on him, just happened that what should have been statutory rape on the guy the was in his daughter's bed got turned into aggravated hate assault on the father cause the guy in bed with his 15 year old daughter had a different color skin.
    Google RSA 651:6 which covers the NH statute. The jury must believe beyond reasonable doubt that the crime was (f) Was substantially motivated to commit the crime because of hostility towards the victim's religion, race, creed, sexual orientation as defined in RSA 21:49, national origin or sex.

    So in the case you mentioned, the father must have done something that demonstrated. My guess would be hurling racial slurs as he beat the guy.

    Either way, does statutory rape justify assaulting someone? If she was 15 and he was 16, it really changes the story. If I walk in and find my 15 year old son having sex with an 18 year old woman, can I beat her to within an inch of her life?

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  18. #3793
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Just hurling some racial epitaphs should not be enough to ratchet up the punishment. 95% of people that sling them are trolls, they aren't choosing that language out of actual hate but because they know they elicit a response. Similarly, in a moment like that where you're under pretty high duress, guess what words your brain will happily dredge up for you even if you're not a hater? Just like those swears that you know you're not supposed to say in polite company and yet, one hammer to your thumb and suddenly sailors are blushing around you.

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