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Trump

  1. #4301
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Trump


    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    You claim to be a libertarian yet seem to fail to grasp the inner conflicts of those basic concepts.
    <rolleyes> Fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    Let's get back to talking about the moron that just pissed off a huge chunk of the earth's population today with the business in Jerusalem.
    At least here we can agree.

    PhilB

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    20x4 =80. I was 4 off. Pretty damn good for a guess.
    Ha, fair point. Though the better metric is a ratio of total agencies.
    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    You claim to be a libertarian yet seem to fail to grasp the inner conflicts of those basic concepts.


    Then why is there so much debate about it in libertarian circles?
    One of many discussions on the subject: libertyhangout.org/2016/12/the-libertarian-case-for-legalizing-drunk-driving/


    Of course. But who determines child abuse? Is spanking child abuse? Confinement? Any punishment whatsoever? Indoctrination into harmful religious beliefs or social constructs? Most would agree that turning your child into a racist is quite harmful. Unless you give a parent full reign to determine this for themselves, you are taking away their freedom. If you do that, you are taking away the child's freedom. You can't cover this with your broad bullshit libertarian "aggression is bad, m'kay?".



    And no matter how you decide to determine this, you are restricting either the freedom of the woman or the freedom of the unborn. It is a grey area because we will never come to agreement on when the unborn deserves full rights.



    If you make abortion illegal, you are prohibiting the woman's domain over her own body. If you make it legal, you are prohibiting the right of the unborn to be free from aggression. One way or the other, you are prohibiting. Even if you get the ridiculous yet popular idea that the unborn is a child deserving of the same rights as those who have been born, YOU are making that decision for the woman, her views be damned.

    I'm sorry it hurts your feelings to show the conflicts in your religio... I mean political view, but damn. This reminds me so much of religious arguments that it's pathetic. In my view the libertarian utopia only supports freedom for the wealthy and those in the majority race/religion/sex/etc. that can band together for strength in numbers. Everyone else gets the scraps. Unofficial Jim Crow.

    Go believe what you believe and I will believe what I believe. We have come to an impasse. Live with it. Just don't get butt hurt when I give my opinion that (L)libertarians take rights away. Call it what you want. I'll understand that you disagree. I admit that my original statement on libertarians limiting freedom was loaded, but it is nonetheless true. Even in the non-grey areas, I am not as free as my neighbor is if I have to commute much farther to work due to housing prejudice that you seem to fully support being legal. You may not see me being less free because apparently you have your own definition for freedom. And that is okay. Z

    Let's get back to talking about the moron that just pissed off a huge chunk of the earth's population today with the business in Jerusalem.
    I'm gonna skip getting too deep in to this - but you're missing that life and freedom isn't perfect, and isn't limitless. You're also touching on arguments that are somewhat analogous to claiming banning murder means you're restricting people's freedom to murder.

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  3. #4303
    Member TwelveGaugeSage's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    Ha, fair point. Though the better metric is a ratio of total agencies.

    I'm gonna skip getting too deep in to this - but you're missing that life and freedom isn't perfect, and isn't limitless. You're also touching on arguments that are somewhat analogous to claiming banning murder means you're restricting people's freedom to murder.
    I'm not missing that at all. I totally agree that life and freedom aren't perfect and can't be limitless. What started this was that I stated that all political ideologies take freedoms. Phil didn't like that I included (L)libertarians in that. For the most part, I agree that people should be free in their own lives up to the point that one's freedom interferes with that of another. Murder is obvious. If we allow murder, we are allowing one person to remove freedom from another, without just cause. Abortion, child abuse, drunk driving laws, etc. aren't so obvious.

    All I'm really saying is that arguing that libertarians don't remove freedoms is goofy. Of course they do. They just generally do it under the pretense that they are adding freedoms. Killing the Civil Rights Act of 1964, would add freedom to business owners, but also remove freedom from many people in that they would be victims of harmful and oppressive discrimination. Killing Medicaid would get rid of the harmful and oppressive taxation that pays for it, but that won't be much comfort to the disabled to whom Medicaid provides the very basic freedom of life.

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    I'm not missing that at all. I totally agree that life and freedom aren't perfect and can't be limitless. What started this was that I stated that all political ideologies take freedoms. Phil didn't like that I included (L)libertarians in that. For the most part, I agree that people should be free in their own lives up to the point that one's freedom interferes with that of another. Murder is obvious. If we allow murder, we are allowing one person to remove freedom from another, without just cause. Abortion, child abuse, drunk driving laws, etc. aren't so obvious.

    All I'm really saying is that arguing that libertarians don't remove freedoms is goofy. Of course they do. They just generally do it under the pretense that they are adding freedoms. Killing the Civil Rights Act of 1964, would add freedom to business owners, but also remove freedom from many people in that they would be victims of harmful and oppressive discrimination. Killing Medicaid would get rid of the harmful and oppressive taxation that pays for it, but that won't be much comfort to the disabled to whom Medicaid provides the very basic freedom of life.
    It's almost as if any absolute ideal has flaws and the answer is probably in the middle as a combination of a lot of things... weird.

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    Re: Trump

    Let's get back to talking about the moron that just pissed off a huge chunk of the earth's population today with the business in Jerusalem.
    Trump. He's the jerk who throws full beer cans into a bonfire then hands out marshmallows and tells people to stand close!

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    Last edited by MUZ720; 12-06-17 at 07:04 PM.

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MUZ720 View Post
    a bond fire

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    I'm not missing that at all. I totally agree that life and freedom aren't perfect and can't be limitless. What started this was that I stated that all political ideologies take freedoms. Phil didn't like that I included (L)libertarians in that. For the most part, I agree that people should be free in their own lives up to the point that one's freedom interferes with that of another. Murder is obvious. If we allow murder, we are allowing one person to remove freedom from another, without just cause. Abortion, child abuse, drunk driving laws, etc. aren't so obvious.

    All I'm really saying is that arguing that libertarians don't remove freedoms is goofy. Of course they do. They just generally do it under the pretense that they are adding freedoms. Killing the Civil Rights Act of 1964, would add freedom to business owners, but also remove freedom from many people in that they would be victims of harmful and oppressive discrimination. Killing Medicaid would get rid of the harmful and oppressive taxation that pays for it, but that won't be much comfort to the disabled to whom Medicaid provides the very basic freedom of life.
    What started this was that you stated all political ideologies take freedoms, and followed with a bunch of "examples" that were not cases of that, and tried to use your incorrect examples thereby to claim that the ONE political philosophy that is based on *expanding* freedom to the maximum extent possible was instead taking freedoms. Which is false. What I didn't like was that you had no idea what you were talking about, and thus were inaccurate. And when informed of your inaccuracies, you doubled down, turning them into lies. Sound a lot like Mr. Trump, doesn't it?

    Most of your examples of "aren't so obvious" are really pretty obvious. And then your second paragraph is just all about further demonstrating your misunderstanding and compounding your errors. Congratulations.

    PhilB

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    Last edited by PhilB; 12-06-17 at 06:55 PM.
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    Re: Trump

    a bond fire
    Spell check lets me down again!
    It is to laugh...

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    I'm not missing that at all. I totally agree that life and freedom aren't perfect and can't be limitless. What started this was that I stated that all political ideologies take freedoms. Phil didn't like that I included (L)libertarians in that. For the most part, I agree that people should be free in their own lives up to the point that one's freedom interferes with that of another. Murder is obvious. If we allow murder, we are allowing one person to remove freedom from another, without just cause. Abortion, child abuse, drunk driving laws, etc. aren't so obvious.

    All I'm really saying is that arguing that libertarians don't remove freedoms is goofy. Of course they do. They just generally do it under the pretense that they are adding freedoms. Killing the Civil Rights Act of 1964, would add freedom to business owners, but also remove freedom from many people in that they would be victims of harmful and oppressive discrimination. Killing Medicaid would get rid of the harmful and oppressive taxation that pays for it, but that won't be much comfort to the disabled to whom Medicaid provides the very basic freedom of life.
    You're drastically stretching what qualifies as 'freedom'. If the poorest people in America are given $500/mo as a hypothetical social program, and it is cancelled, those people's freedom (in government context) was not impacted. Their quality of life surely was. Your core issue seems to be that our current economic state has hindered people's chances at living the American dream, or to pursue happiness. And you're incorrectly calling that a loss of freedom. I think you'll find more common ground framing it differently. Though some might argue that part of the reason we have this predicament is the result of unconstitutional changes, corruption, and governmental meddling I'm not saying that's the whole reason, and it's a whole other debate topic. The boot strappy crowd likes to say 'well, so-and-so came from the gutter and figured it out. work harder!'. What happens if hypothetically there's only room for one of us to achieve that kind of success and it becomes king of the hill? Is that really what was intended? I doubt it. If we all agree king of the hill is bad, what's the tolerable distribution, and do we have it currently?

    The civil rights act is more than just what you're talking about. A lot of it addresses equality at the government level. It bans discrimination, but for public businesses. Private businesses not open to the general public aren't covered. Are you using this as an example because people are calling for it's repeal? I'm not aware of that. Much of it seems pretty consistent with libertarian ideology to me. Though I'm far from an expert.

    It's certainly accurate that some topics are complex. Much of it stems from defining what constitutes harm to another. Another good example is global warming and pollution. The more selfish libertarians (arguably a cancer to a good idea) want to do whatever they want on their private property with zero consideration for it's long term impacts on the earth. Jethro's tire fire pile never hurt anyone.

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    What started this was that you stated all political ideologies take freedoms, and followed with a bunch of "examples" that were not cases of that, and tried to use your incorrect examples thereby to claim that the ONE political philosophy that is based on *expanding* freedom to the maximum extent possible was instead taking freedoms. Which is false. What I didn't like was that you had no idea what you were talking about, and thus were inaccurate. And when informed of your inaccuracies, you doubled down, turning them into lies. Sound a lot like Mr. Trump, doesn't it?

    Most of your examples of "aren't so obvious" are really pretty obvious. And then your second paragraph is just all about further demonstrating your misunderstanding and compounding your errors. Congratulations.

    PhilB
    Thank you for your opinion. It's important to have the only one that matters.

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    You're drastically stretching what qualifies as 'freedom'. If the poorest people in America are given $500/mo as a hypothetical social program, and it is cancelled, those people's freedom (in government context) was not impacted.
    Right, if you only view freedom as freedom from the government preventing you from doing things, I would agree. But, to me at least, freedom is more than that. If the only thing keeping me mobile, or active, or alive is medicaid, and you get rid of medicaid, have you not removed my freedom? To me, this is a yes.

    The civil rights act is more than just what you're talking about. A lot of it addresses equality at the government level. It bans discrimination, but for public businesses. Private businesses not open to the general public aren't covered. Are you using this as an example because people are calling for it's repeal? I'm not aware of that. Much of it seems pretty consistent with libertarian ideology to me. Though I'm far from an expert.
    I don't think any libertarians have a problem with the protections from government created inequalities, it is the private business part they have problems with. See: Paul says he would have opposed 1964 Civil Rights Act | TheHill

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    Thank you for your opinion. It's important to have the only one that matters.
    Well, it is important to have one that is coherent, rational, and not factually incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    Right, if you only view freedom as freedom from the government preventing you from doing things, I would agree. But, to me at least, freedom is more than that. If the only thing keeping me mobile, or active, or alive is medicaid, and you get rid of medicaid, have you not removed my freedom? To me, this is a yes. ...
    Humpty-Dumpty would be proud.

    PhilB

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    Last edited by PhilB; 12-07-17 at 11:11 AM.
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    Re: Trump

    Now that we have settled that Phil's opinion is the only one that could possibly be coherent, rational, and factual, anyone else see/hear Trump slurring his words yesterday. One of the late shows slowed it down which was pretty amusing.

    Is Donald Trump Losing His Mind Or His Teeth? - YouTube

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    Last edited by TwelveGaugeSage; 12-07-17 at 12:49 PM.

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    Re: Trump

    Seems he finally managed to fulfill at least one of his campaign promises... piss off more brown people.

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    Now that we have settled that Phil's opinion is the only one that could possibly be coherent, rational, and factual, ...
    Good example of what I'm talking about, with regard to you twisting words and making shit up, to suit your own agenda. I didn't say, or even imply, that mine was the only one. Plenty of other people have coherent, rational, factual belief systems. *Yours*, OTOH ...

    PhilB

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Good example of what I'm talking about, with regard to you twisting words and making shit up, to suit your own agenda. I didn't say, or even imply, that mine was the only one. Plenty of other people have coherent, rational, factual belief systems. *Yours*, OTOH ...

    PhilB
    Thank you for another of your unerring opinions. Can we get back to Trump now?

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Seems he finally managed to fulfill at least one of his campaign promises... piss off more brown people.
    Lots of other candidates promised to do the same and must have just been lying...personally I think we should stay completely out of it.

    I'd prefer no more of our tax $ going to Israel (or Egypt, etc). They're all arguing over fairy tales and 'holy' lands. Let them duke it out.

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveGaugeSage View Post
    Now that we have settled that Phil's opinion is the only one that could possibly be coherent, rational, and factual, anyone else see/hear Trump slurring his words yesterday. One of the late shows slowed it down which was pretty amusing.

    Is Donald Trump Losing His Mind Or His Teeth? - YouTube
    The rest of us kinda know better than to get down like that with phil. It was refreshing to not be the one in your shoes this time.

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    The rest of us kinda know better than to get down like that with phil. It was refreshing to not be the one in your shoes this time.
    Unless it is a something libertarians internally debate about (like when is a fetus a human or whether or not you are allowed to racially refuse service), if you disagree with Phil you're wrong and there are no other view points allowed. Don't worry, his incredibly precise writing will convince you he is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Good example of what I'm talking about, with regard to you twisting words and making shit up, to suit your own agenda. I didn't say, or even imply, that mine was the only one. Plenty of other people have coherent, rational, factual belief systems. *Yours*, OTOH ...

    PhilB
    I've followed this thread quite a bit, pretty much from the start. I don't think I've seen you accept credibility for anyone's viewpoint unless it agreed with yours. Part of the reason I no longer really get involved in a political discussion in this thread anymore. Don't wanna get PhilB'd.

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    Last edited by JettaJayGLS; 12-08-17 at 12:58 PM.
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JettaJayGLS View Post
    Unless it is a something libertarians internally debate about (like when is a fetus a human or whether or not you are allowed to racially refuse service), if you disagree with Phil you're wrong and there are no other view points allowed. Don't worry, his incredibly precise writing will convince you he is right.

    Granted this site is a collective of a lot of different people and backgrounds. But lets not kid ourselves, It's a very homogenous sliver of America here.

    The part about a business discriminating based on race would be a big one for me; I'm Black. The fact that Libertains would actually debate that sends up a huge red flag for me to be like: well screw those guys too, as they are just as bad as the racist business owner to begin with.

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    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    I'm a white male and I agree.
    Even though I agree with a lot of the Libertarian platform, I think examples like this are why the party will never gain real legitimacy. Too extreme. Too inflexible.

    I also skim over PhilB posts now. Those posts rarely introduce anything new. I've already read the argument. Next.

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    Lifer
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jhawley View Post
    The part about a business discriminating based on race would be a big one for me; I'm Black. The fact that Libertains would actually debate that sends up a huge red flag for me to be like: well screw those guys too, as they are just as bad as the racist business owner to begin with.
    While it initially seems to support racism, that usually isn't the point. Those who advocate for it typically hope racist businesses that choose to discriminate fail. It kinda lets shitty people self-identify, making it easier to know where not to shop. And it also lets you deny service to someone you know to be extremely racist.

    Granted, it's one of those things that I get the principle behind and will debate/argue it. But I'm not terribly disappointed by the more popular approach we have now.

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    Re: Trump

    Don't argue with Libertarians, don't you know they have a monopoly on freedom?

    I will say there is one thing Phil and I fully agree on...that damn Motus is one bad motor scooter.

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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    While it initially seems to support racism, that usually isn't the point. Those who advocate for it typically hope racist businesses that choose to discriminate fail. It kinda lets shitty people self-identify, making it easier to know where not to shop. And it also lets you deny service to someone you know to be extremely racist.

    Granted, it's one of those things that I get the principle behind and will debate/argue it. But I'm not terribly disappointed by the more popular approach we have now.
    This is one of these things that in theory sounds almost as nice as unicorn farts, but it reality we still have an awful lot of racist sumbitches hanging around...

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