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Trump

  1. #5501
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Trump


    I'm doing well for myself after bombing out of college hard 'cause I preferred to tinker with computers at 'work' and play videogames than go to class. I suppose if I wanted to stop actually doing things at work and go to the managerial side of things a degree might impact my career arc at this point, but... no interest. Observation says the path I took is still open to others, and given the current costs of getting a 'suitable' degree before going down the IT trail as well as what those programs churn out for skill sets, I would have to evaluate a suggestion to dive straight in as self taught vs higher ed first on an individual by individual basis. For those who are self motivated there is absolutely room to make a comfortable living in the trades without a degree, but like college, that path isn't a perfect fit for everyone.

    And then there are those that college is a waste, and they have no drive of their own... there is no helping some of them...

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  2. #5502
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    I had typed out a long winded response, then deleted, but given Josh's post, I'll just say this:

    To have a Masters in the field of IT be profitable is HIGHLY dependent on your geographic location. For those of us not already living in the "tech belt" of new england, the opportunity cost to get back into the rat race is high. I've done the math out, and unfortunately in my industry, it just simply wouldn't be worth it, even for a lower cost masters.


    Back on topic.

    How many rolls of paper towels do you think Trump will need to toss to some supporters to qualify as a sufficient response to this hurricane?

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  3. #5503
    Bizarro Zoolander Petorius's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    The no-college arguments all come with qualifiers, like "if you are self-driven, patient, willing to work hard..." etc. I know plenty of people who are none of these things, but got into good schools one way or another and are now coasting through ~100K individual contributor-level professional careers or mid 100s middle management trajectories. If you have the option to pick up a degree in the right field from a decent school, there is certainly something to be said for the ease and security of that path. No need to stick it out to the master level, open your own business, etc.

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  4. #5504
    Member TwelveGaugeSage's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    Back on topic.

    How many rolls of paper towels do you think Trump will need to toss to some supporters to qualify as a sufficient response to this hurricane?
    Trump-wyh_pmketonbo8jbjsex8yog-yutwv-d1xrwyf37qjc-jpg

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  5. #5505
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    I wanna beat this dead horse a little further: my wife has a masters, and I have zero additional paperwork beyond a hs diploma. I not only make more than her, I’ll be retired fully 10yrs before her.
    Put that in your pipe.


    Granted, we live a relatively not-so-extravagant lifestyle, but we do the things.

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  6. #5506
    Dictionary quoting knob stoinkythepig's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Been thinking about the unintended consequences of Trump's agenda. I think there's a legitimate chance that a Trump backlash/blue wave could lead to universal healthcare in the US in the next 5 years. The "Medicare for all" concept is gathering momentum just as the GOP is likely to lose the House (and the Senate is in more jeopardy of going left than anyone ever thought possible this year). If universal healthcare happens, it means early retirement for me. I could retire at 57 or younger. I'm 52 now, already pension eligible, have a decent chunk of money saved, and almost no debt (yay for decades of pre-owned everything and DYI!). Without universal healthcare, I'd be looking to retire at 61 or so. That theoretical 4 years of extra leisure time during middle age would be truly life-changing for anyone, I'd think. That alone would make me a one-issue voter. Am I alone in this situation?

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  7. #5507
    Posting Freak Gixxer's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I wanna beat this dead horse a little further: my wife has a masters, and I have zero additional paperwork beyond a hs diploma. I not only make more than her, I’ll be retired fully 10yrs before her.
    Put that in your pipe.


    Granted, we live a relatively not-so-extravagant lifestyle, but we do the things.
    Dude, know your place. Any of your funds trickled down from theirs anyway, so show some respect.

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  8. #5508
    Dictionary quoting knob stoinkythepig's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    I wanna beat this dead horse a little further: my wife has a masters, and I have zero additional paperwork beyond a hs diploma. I not only make more than her, I’ll be retired fully 10yrs before her.
    Put that in your pipe.


    Granted, we live a relatively not-so-extravagant lifestyle, but we do the things.
    My wife is better educated than I am and makes roughly 1/4 of my salary... She gets great benefits though and has a really short commute.

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  9. #5509
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    Easy buddy. Higher learning is the superior choice! Has been that way for thousands of years.

    It's OK though.
    Higher learning doesn’t equal needing a degree, or education past high school. People out in a workforce fresh out of high school, are simply gaining an education while getting paid, rather than paying. Yeah, they may not have the paper trail to show their paid education, that being said, I agree with you that “higher learning is the superior choice”, whether it comes from a degree, or from being out in the workforce.

    No degree here, I’m in a trade union, have consistently made over 6 figures a year, pension, annuity, medical all paid... and no student loans to pay back.

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  10. #5510
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    I had typed out a long winded response, then deleted, but given Josh's post, I'll just say this:

    To have a Masters in the field of IT be profitable is HIGHLY dependent on your geographic location. For those of us not already living in the "tech belt" of new england, the opportunity cost to get back into the rat race is high. I've done the math out, and unfortunately in my industry, it just simply wouldn't be worth it, even for a lower cost masters.


    Back on topic.

    How many rolls of paper towels do you think Trump will need to toss to some supporters to qualify as a sufficient response to this hurricane?
    To this point I think location plays a huge part in this.

    The part of the state that I am in is not rich and higher education isn't as prevalent as other parts.

    This would make it easier to schlep along without a MS.

    While money may be important I'm growing to realize that it isn't the end all be all. Having a 40hr/wk schedule, enjoying what you do, garnishing fulfillment from what you do, having job security, having a short commute, and having a flexible schedule all play a part.

    I interviewed for a job recently which had been open for months without a seat filled yet. The hiring manager indicated they had tons of applicants (which I saw via linkedin) but they were all degree carrying persons with no relation to the real world. This was an entry level engineering position and having a degree wasn't cutting it. I found that extremely interesting.

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  11. #5511
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    Re: Trump

    A couple of comments come across as incredibly naïve with regards to working Joes vs college education.

    I am not saying one is better than the other. I am saying that people without formal education can do just fine. For whatever it's worth, without even so much as a GED, my career path has, at times, had me travelling around the world, producing results for multi-million dollar contracts, rubbing shoulders with some rather influential people, eating at some of the world's top tier restaurants and more recently I managed to secure a ~25% increase in pay...…..and I wasn't doing to shabby prior to that.

    How I arrived here is directly inline with SteveM's comment about sustainable value. I committed to myself the entire time, worked my ever-loving ass off and never gave up on forward momentum even in the times it didn't feel that way. And while I don't need anyone's approval for what I'm doing, you might want to give credit to those who found another way because there's probably a good chance they may not have had the same opportunities as you.

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    Last edited by butcher bergs; 09-12-18 at 08:41 PM. Reason: speeeling

  12. #5512
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Trump

    I am not sure why many of you feel the need to step up and explain your individual journeys. Statistics is not personal. The point that I made, and Number9 tried to explain more succinctly than I did was about probability in the aggregate. i.e., what's the best bet for the most number of people over a long period of time.

    Even if everyone on here said they didn't go to college but make a good living, it still wouldn't change the premise that in today's world, advanced education (masters +) and specialization that it brings stands the best chance of providing a good standard of living over a long period of time for the most number of people, all else equal. In a highly competitive global economy, the knowledge bar is higher and has gone up with each generation.

    If R7 or Kurlon or Butcher beat the odds, that's great and respect to them, but it doesn't mean the path they chose has a high chance of repeated success. They are still against the odds and you wouldn't build a career path for the population around their journeys.

    The point about not all advanced degrees are created equal is very valid. My fiancee has a masters in archeology and makes a pittance. The objective we are trying to optimize in this discussion is earning potential, not career bets made for other fulfillment needs.

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 09-12-18 at 09:20 PM.

  13. #5513
    Your Father csmutty's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Do you like your job?

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  14. #5514
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    I am not sure why many of you feel the need to step up and explain your individual journeys. Statistics is not personal. The point that I made, and Number9 tried to explain more succinctly than I did was about probability in the aggregate. i.e., what's the best bet for the most number of people over a long period of time.

    Even if everyone on here said they didn't go to college but make a good living, it still wouldn't change the premise that in today's world, advanced education (masters +) and specialization that it brings stands the best chance of providing a good standard of living over a long period of time for the most number of people, all else equal. In a highly competitive global economy, the knowledge bar is higher and has gone up with each generation.

    If R7 or Kurlon or Butcher beat the odds, that's great and respect to them, but it doesn't mean the path they chose has a high chance of repeated success. They are still against the odds and you wouldn't build a career path for the population around their journeys.

    The point about not all advanced degrees are created equal is very valid. My fiancee has a masters in archeology and makes a pittance. The objective we are trying to optimize in this discussion is earning potential, not career bets made for other fulfillment needs.

    “All else being equal” is the problem with this argument - it rarely ever is.

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  15. #5515

    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer72 View Post
    “All else being equal” is the problem with this argument - it rarely ever is.
    This right here. Look up how many lawyers are underemployed. Advanced education is great, but it is no panacea. I have graduate degrees, but a lot of things I think people are better off learning by doing.

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  16. #5516
    Lifer
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    The objective we are trying to optimize in this discussion is earning potential, not career bets made for other fulfillment needs.
    You're talking about probability, but part of the problem may be a difference in defining success. Is this about the odds of achieving very large income, or comfortable income?

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  17. #5517
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    I am not sure why many of you feel the need to step up and explain your individual journeys. Statistics is not personal. The point that I made, and Number9 tried to explain more succinctly than I did was about probability in the aggregate. i.e., what's the best bet for the most number of people over a long period of time.

    Even if everyone on here said they didn't go to college but make a good living, it still wouldn't change the premise that in today's world, advanced education (masters +) and specialization that it brings stands the best chance of providing a good standard of living over a long period of time for the most number of people, all else equal. In a highly competitive global economy, the knowledge bar is higher and has gone up with each generation.

    If R7 or Kurlon or Butcher beat the odds, that's great and respect to them, but it doesn't mean the path they chose has a high chance of repeated success. They are still against the odds and you wouldn't build a career path for the population around their journeys.

    The point about not all advanced degrees are created equal is very valid. My fiancee has a masters in archeology and makes a pittance. The objective we are trying to optimize in this discussion is earning potential, not career bets made for other fulfillment needs.
    If you had worded your first post about education like this, we could’ve saved 4 pages.
    I’d buy that statistically masters degree holders earn more than those without any college education over a lifetime. But there’s way more to the story than those numbers, or any stat, can indicate.

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  18. #5518
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    The point that I made, and Number9 tried to explain more succinctly than I did was about probability in the aggregate. i.e., what's the best bet for the most number of people over a long period of time.
    From your very first post on this subject, you've been doing an incredibly poor job at making this point.

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  19. #5519
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    1833 people didn't die from Hurricane Katrina. Nope. Made up.

    What's next? Saying that 9/11 was made up?

    This is the world we live in now. Aren't you Trumpers glad?

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  20. #5520
    Lifer ilikenapalm's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. I would love to see a logical argument for continuing to support Trump.

    Gigantic emphasis on logic, please.

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  21. #5521
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ilikenapalm View Post
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. I would love to see a logical argument for continuing to support Trump.

    Gigantic emphasis on logic, please.
    If you think his actions/decisions are responsible for the gains in the stock market, and the gains in GDP growth, and the (arguable) gains in battling ISIS... then you'd probably support him. At the expense of all the other stuff, of course.

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  22. #5522
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
    I am not sure why many of you feel the need to step up and explain your individual journeys. Statistics is not personal. The point that I made, and Number9 tried to explain more succinctly than I did was about probability in the aggregate. i.e., what's the best bet for the most number of people over a long period of time.

    Even if everyone on here said they didn't go to college but make a good living, it still wouldn't change the premise that in today's world, advanced education (masters +) and specialization that it brings stands the best chance of providing a good standard of living over a long period of time for the most number of people, all else equal. In a highly competitive global economy, the knowledge bar is higher and has gone up with each generation.

    If R7 or Kurlon or Butcher beat the odds, that's great and respect to them, but it doesn't mean the path they chose has a high chance of repeated success. They are still against the odds and you wouldn't build a career path for the population around their journeys.

    The point about not all advanced degrees are created equal is very valid. My fiancee has a masters in archeology and makes a pittance. The objective we are trying to optimize in this discussion is earning potential, not career bets made for other fulfillment needs.
    You are not adjusting the slope coefficient and p-value of the binary college/no college variable for the effects of considering a multivariate model including personal strengths, location, differing degrees and a host of other factors.

    Don’t worry though, it is a classic beginner mistake to broadly generalize from an overly simplistic single variable model.

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  23. #5523
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Did, did you just drop 'correlation != causation' in proper statistical terminology?

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  24. #5524
    xxaarraa
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    You are not adjusting the slope coefficient and p-value of the binary college/no college variable for the effects of considering a multivariate model including personal strengths, location, differing degrees and a host of other factors.
    Nice try. In management consulting, we simply call this "consultease" I am surprised you left out machine learning and AI from that amusing sentence.

    If you want to try again with real information and not a bunch of garbled hot words, it would make for a real conversation.

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 09-16-18 at 08:47 AM.

  25. #5525
    Lifer SteveM's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    yes I was poking fun, but I’ve taught this for 17 years and was brought in just this year by two different firms who were consulting to fortune 500’s to make sure their inferences from their survey data were sound.

    I’m sure you’re a bright young guy, but you were playing fast and loose to retroactively defend your overly broad conclusion.

    You’re in my wheelhouse, Padawan.

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    Last edited by SteveM; 09-16-18 at 10:55 AM.

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