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Trump

  1. #7376

    Re: Trump


    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    yes, and all his followers who don't believe in "free lunches" suddenly believed in free lunches.
    Here is a list of all the "free" shit Trump is promising.

    *College
    *Childcare
    *Healthcare
    *Drugs
    *Alternate Energy
    *Debt
    *Raises
    *Subsidies
    *Benefits
    *Sick Days
    *Pre-K
    *Doubling the EIC
    *Family Leave
    *Certain Lending
    *Abortions
    *Foreign Aid
    *Mental Health Counseling
    *”Resiliency”[sic]
    *Agriculture
    *Seawalls
    *Reparations
    *Military Engagements
    *Infrastructure
    *Art
    *Housing
    *Increases To Current Entitlement Programs
    *Money For Everyone, Monthly, Just Because

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    May the road rise to meet you, May the wind always be at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face.

  2. #7377
    Posting Freak MUZ720's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    Here is a list of all the "free" shit Trump is promising.

    *College
    *Childcare
    *Healthcare
    *Drugs
    *Alternate Energy
    *Debt
    *Raises
    *Subsidies
    *Benefits
    *Sick Days
    *Pre-K
    *Doubling the EIC
    *Family Leave
    *Certain Lending
    *Abortions
    *Foreign Aid
    *Mental Health Counseling
    *”Resiliency”[sic]
    *Agriculture
    *Seawalls
    *Reparations
    *Military Engagements
    *Infrastructure
    *Art
    *Housing
    *Increases To Current Entitlement Programs
    *Money For Everyone, Monthly, Just Because
    How that's some funny shit right there

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  3. #7378

    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by MUZ720 View Post
    How that's some funny shit right there
    Sorry I was mistaken. Allow me to make a correction. https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/l...election-2020/

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    May the road rise to meet you, May the wind always be at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face.

  4. #7379
    Lifer
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambunctous View Post
    *Money For Everyone, Monthly, Just Because
    My boy Yang, 2020!


    Stay tuned for my School Me: Politics, coming soon

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  5. #7380
    Lifer backinthesaddle's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    This argument serves as a great reminder of why I will never vote libertarian again.
    And Lincoln Chaffee formerly of R.I. who ran last time based on the metric system has switched to the libertarian party and wants to run again. He was a Republican like his father, then a democrat, what’s next after libertarian? Bull moose?. He was a mayor, his father a big time senator, formerly sec of the navy. Father dies and governor puts him in senate. Then he becomes governor. RI the epitome of insiders. Now he’s moved out of R.I. probably due to taxes being lower elsewhere.

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    Last edited by backinthesaddle; 01-13-20 at 08:41 PM.

  6. #7381

  7. #7382
    Backwoods lobster boy number9's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Of course they have been. That's what happens when government gets involved. And the more it is involved, the worse it gets.

    PhilB
    Some things cannot be provided in an acceptable fashion by the "free market". Healthcare is usually one of those things...

    If you had a free market, health insurance companies would offer cheap insurance to healthy people and nothing to anybody else. That would be pointless.

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    Last edited by number9; 01-13-20 at 09:14 PM.
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  8. #7383
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Of course they have been. That's what happens when government gets involved. And the more it is involved, the worse it gets.
    I wholly disagree with the principle here. It's what happens when you let the market run free. It takes advantage of whatever it can for the highest profit. People by and large NEED medical care, so they're at the whim of providers who get to charge whatever they can get away with.
    Disagree all you like, but reality is that when an industry becomes monopolized or "protected" by the government, prices go through the roof, quality suffers, and scarcity ensues. And when an industry is served by a competitive market, prices are competitive, quality is maintained or improved, innovation increases, and supply becomes abundant.

    There are myriad examples of this effect, throughout our society, and in many others.

    Most directly relevant would be to look at healthcare services in our own country right now. The two main categories of medical services that are abundant, cheap, and innovative are: laser eye surgery, and cosmetic surgery. Both of which are relatively unregulated, and are served by competitive markets. So this is possible, right here, right now. The government has legitimate roles in contract enforcement, and in investigating and prosecuting any fraud or malpractice.

    More areas of healthcare could *greatly* benefit from this model -- as would their patients and their providers.

    PhilB

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  9. #7384
    Lifer PhilB's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by number9 View Post
    Some things cannot be provided in an acceptable fashion by the "free market". Healthcare is usually one of those things...

    If you had a free market, health insurance companies would offer cheap insurance to healthy people and nothing to anybody else. That would be pointless.
    Do you know how insurance actually works? In a market, in any area of endeavor?

    In a free market, health insurance companies would offer the best rates to the healthiest people, of course. They are a lower risk.
    People with existing conditions, or high risk factors would pay more; this is not unjust.
    People who wait until they have a health problem to buy insurance will be SOL.

    And is exactly how life insurance, car insurance, homeowners and fire and liability and disability and every other kind of insurance works, and MUST work, in order to function.

    People who are dying can't get life insurance. Duh. You can't insure your car after you've crashed it, or your house if its already burned down.
    Your rates are commensurate with your risk factors. That's reasonable and reality.

    Price transparency, a competitive insurance market, a competitive health care provider market, and reasonable regulations regarding what's allowed to be provided, would fix the hell out this problem.

    Single-payer, or socialized medicine, or anything too similar, would and will be a fucking disaster, will be unsustainable, and collapse.

    PhilB

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    "A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper." -- Ludwig von Mises
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  10. #7385
    Backwoods lobster boy number9's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Do you know how insurance actually works? In a market, in any area of endeavor?
    Yes, I do.

    In a free market, health insurance companies would offer the best rates to the healthiest people, of course. They are a lower risk.
    People with existing conditions, or high risk factors would pay more; this is not unjust.
    People who wait until they have a health problem to buy insurance will be SOL.
    The problem is that people with serious pre-existing conditions will simply be priced out of coverage, because the insurance company will never make their money back on them.

    In most countries, this is unacceptable. In the US, prior to the ACA, this was perfectly acceptable. Denying care based on pre-existing conditions is not how most people want insurance to function, even if it means less profits for insurance companies.

    And is exactly how life insurance, car insurance, homeowners and fire and liability and disability and every other kind of insurance works, and MUST work, in order to function.
    Comparing health insurance to other types of insurance is tricky. Health insurance, much more so than other types of insurance, has massive problems with information assymmetry. How healthy are you? How healthy do you tell your doctor you are? How much will that procedure cost? How much better off will it make you? The answer to these questions is much more complicated, if they are even possible to be answered, compared to the equivalent questions for car or house insurance.

    Your rates are commensurate with your risk factors. That's reasonable and reality.
    What people think is reasonable and what insurance companies think is reasonable do not often align.

    Price transparency, a competitive insurance market, a competitive health care provider market, and reasonable regulations regarding what's allowed to be provided, would fix the hell out this problem.
    On this, you have my complete agreement.

    Single-payer, or socialized medicine, or anything too similar, would and will be a fucking disaster, will be unsustainable, and collapse.
    On this, not so much. Two things: one, Medicare and Medicaid mean well over a third of US healthcare expenditure is already socialized single-payer. Two, my own Australia (and England and Canada and...) has some version of a single-payer system, and none have collapsed.

    Republicans can say what they want about how much they hate the ACA, and it's true that some people's insurance has gone up in price significantly. But two other things are also true: one, that millions more people are insured now than before. And two, people want pre-existing conditions to be covered.

    The ACA is not unpopular.

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    Last edited by number9; 01-13-20 at 10:36 PM.
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  11. #7386
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    People with existing conditions, or high risk factors would pay more; this is not unjust.
    un·just
    /ˌənˈjəst/
    adjective
    not based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.
    We can do better.

    It is nice to re-affirm that libertarians feel otherwise. Once again, I'll be voting against you at every level of government from now on.


    Quote Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
    Single-payer, or socialized medicine, or anything too similar, would and will be a fucking disaster, will be unsustainable, and collapse.
    The rest of the industrialized world just rolled its eyes at you.

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  12. #7387
    Lifer Garandman's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Don’t know if any of you are on Twitter, but actor Vince Vaughn shook hands with President Trump at a football game and people are mad.

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  13. #7388
    Member jimmycapp's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Funny story. My mom got her degree from fox "news". She's terrified of socialized medicine. Loves her Medicare though. Can't understand the difference between social programs that pay for fire, police, MILITARY, paved roads, schools, health insurance, and SoCialISTS. It's wild. Her and her siblings are all the same.My uncle was telling her a story about one of his friends and his wife were in italy. Car accident while riding scooters. Husband has a heart attach during crash. Mom is asking how horrible it must have been. There only issue was the language barrier. He was in the hospital for over a month to recover, and paid $0 out of pocket. If they were Italians, traveling in the US, it would have been 500k? Maybe more.

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  14. #7389
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt.

    You read off the features of the ACA in a vacuum and everyone nods their heads, yeah, yeah, yeah.
    Then you say it is a law called the ACA and their nose crinkles.
    Drop the nickname "obamacare" and the pitchforks come out.

    It continually blows my mind that R's have managed to get people to vehemently fight for policy that actively hurts themselves. If it wasn't so sad I'd be impressed.

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  15. #7390
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Of course another option to the preexisting condition problem would be just to NOT tie medical insurance to employment.

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  16. #7391
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    Of course another option to the preexisting condition problem would be just to NOT tie medical insurance to employment.
    Except we currently live in a world where people essentially work for healthcare.
    The legislature removed healthcare from collective bargaining in mass. It's really just a way to keep the workers from getting ahead because they know they have us firmly over a barrel.

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  17. #7392
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Free market is a sly way of saying for-profit.

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  18. #7393
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Or just socialize coverage. You know, expand that functioning program that already covers 1/3rd of us. Make everyone covered from birth to death, working or not. White, brown, black, turquoise, alabaster, albino or unidentified. Straight, gay, or none-of-your-fucking-business. And most importantly, rich or poor. Everyone. No questions asked.

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  19. #7394
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Except we currently live in a world where people essentially work for healthcare.
    The legislature removed healthcare from collective bargaining in mass. It's really just a way to keep the workers from getting ahead because they know they have us firmly over a barrel.
    Wait, what? MA made it illegal for unions to bargain based on health insurance?

    I agree, that tying health insurance to jobs is a way to "constrain" workers (it was originally used as a tool to "entice" workers, when employers couldn't do it with salary, but as things do, that has changed. The laws around salary changed, but the laws around insurance did not and both employers and insurance companies took advantage of that.).

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  20. #7395
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Or just socialize coverage. You know, expand that functioning program that already covers 1/3rd of us. Make everyone covered from birth to death, working or not. White, brown, black, turquoise, alabaster, albino or unidentified. Straight, gay, or none-of-your-fucking-business. And most importantly, rich or poor. Everyone. No questions asked.
    We could also just roll everyone into the existing single payer system that we already have all over the US. The VA Health Care Service.
    Just open it up to everyone. Since it is clearly better than the existing system people will just naturally migrate there.

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  21. #7396
    Super Adventurer SRTie4k's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    We could also just roll everyone into the existing single payer system that we already have all over the US. The VA Health Care Service.
    Just open it up to everyone. Since it is clearly better than the existing system people will just naturally migrate there.
    As if VA hospital availability and wait times aren't bad enough already.

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  22. #7397
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTie4k View Post
    As if VA hospital availability and wait times aren't bad enough already.
    If it was the way of the land, every hospital would be a va hospital.

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  23. #7398
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    My plan was FAR from useless, it now costs MUCH more for MUCH more out of pocket with more limits.
    I would genuinely like to know how the ACA forced your insurance company to raise the price of your insurance and raise the limits and deductibles without offering more coverage.

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  24. #7399
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Degsy View Post
    I would genuinely like to know how the ACA forced your insurance company to raise the price of your insurance and raise the limits and deductibles without offering more coverage.
    It's almost like some external force acted on the market, disrupting the normal economic patterns that you base that assumption on... weird huh?

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  25. #7400
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    It's almost like some external force acted on the market, disrupting the normal economic patterns that you base that assumption on... weird huh?
    The CEO bought a new plane?

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