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Kool-aide flavor fight

  1. #1
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Kool-aide flavor fight


    Haven't had a good discussion like this in what, 5, 10 minutes?

    I've decided I want a new dirty toy. Specifically something that burns premix in the small and screamy size. I've now gotten limited seat time on a YZ125, YZ125X and a couple 2018/2019 KTM 150SXs. Because I'm not a smart person, I've also been reading up on the other blue option, TM's 144MX. In short, there is piss little online for info on TMs, not even full spec sheets but it appears part of that is 'cause there is no standard spec, every one is a custom order? In any case, I want a new dirty toy specifically to spend some time at MX tracks on. My weakness in Sumo racing is leaving the pavement, my twisted thought process is something lighter and more MX focused than my sumo would help build some confidence while learning? Of course it'll also likely see some sumo duty 'cause why not, and ice, woods, a do it all other than street machine basically.

    In the blue camp the YZs are a known quantity, been around forever with very minor changes over the years, KYB forks are adaptable to any need, parts are plentiful. The downside, only available in 125cc flavor out of the crate, and while the X did make the power delivery more linear it still has no bottom end at all. Theoretically my existing collection of sumo wheels can be adapted, but will need custom spacers as RAD is no more so I can't just buy the right ones any more.

    Orange camp's 150SX has a beautiful motor in this latest generation (2018+) that actually has the tiniest bit of bottom end with a fun rush on top. Lighter than the blue machine by 5 to 10lbs too. The air fork is a bit of an unknown? I've got a set of dirt wheels off my ongoing 250XC road racer conversion project that will drop on as spares / woods / ice maybe units.

    The other blue camp's machine is an enigma wrapped in a riddle enclosed in a 404 not found error that emits a strong golden glow in Europe. They're popular over there, doing well in many disciplines, but as noted I can't get a firm spec on a 144MX. Possibly lighter than the KTM? They use KYB forks so those are at least a known quantity. Common theme I've seen in the few reviews that are online is 'they need to be ridden hard to work well'. Aftermarket is not strong, on the flip side they basically come full decked/blinged out of the crate, and are priced as such. Reports are that getting repair parts is not an issue? Having direct access to the importer is an interesting side effect of shopping this path so far.

    So, we all love to spend other people's money, which bike would you throw my wallet at?

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    Last edited by Kurlon; 09-16-19 at 12:07 PM.
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  2. #2
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    150XC all day long.

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  3. #3
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    TC125

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    Lifer typeone's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    TC125
    +1, this would be my choice as well if dropping the shiny coins ... if dull coins, a YZ125 w/ MaxPower 139 kit (i think about adding this bike every season)

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    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    So you're buying the TM, I take it?

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  6. #6
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    150XC all day long.
    No longer exists, you go from the 150SX right to the 150XC-W TPI with no step in between.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    TC125
    Quote Originally Posted by typeone View Post
    +1, this would be my choice as well if dropping the shiny coins ... if dull coins, a YZ125 w/ MaxPower 139 kit (i think about adding this bike every season)
    Why the TC125 over a 150SX? Same forks/shock, what does the Husky bring to the party?

    This is going to blow minds, but I don't want to buy new and immediately tear into the motor, if the 125 isn't going to work as is out of the crate I'm going to pass. (That's not to say I haven't read up on Max Power's setup, as well as some crazy 167+ stroker builds, etc...)

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    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Work out of the crate for what??

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  8. #8
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Seems like this would be a lot of fun on a mx course:
    https://www.altamotors.co/redshift-mx#redshift-mx1

    Doesn't run on premix though...

    Edit: I guess they're not longer in operation, but BRP bought their assets, and I saw something about KTM making an e-bike too. If I had a bunch to spend I'd buy a cheap RM125 or something like that to last me till the ebikes come out!

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    Last edited by tucktuvak; 09-16-19 at 01:43 PM.
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    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    So, what I understand about small bore MX bikes is that there is still nothing turning faster laptimes than the 125s. But the 150s are a touch more forgiving for an old/slow guy.

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  10. #10
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    So you're buying the TM, I take it?
    As cool as the TM sounds, it's the toughest sell for me of the bunch. Low production numbers, hand made / custom / changes every year make me question long term parts support. Those same concerns appear to suppress resale value for what that's worth. Setup/tuning info is also likely lacking in the US. The last potential death threat is the price, MSRP is $2k more than a Yamaha, $1k more than the KTM. I've no idea if the included bling/factory race spec bits justify that price premium or not, or if the bulk of it is stuff I'd have bought anyways? For me to go that route I need to know with certainty that I'll be happy with it, such that I ride the snot out of it. If it just sits in the garage it's a waste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Work out of the crate for what??
    If I'm fighting/hating the motor out of the crate ('cause lets face it, I'm too used to bikes that can be lugged, my smoker included) to the point that I'm lusting after a bore/stroker kit shortly after purchase, I bought the wrong machine. The YZ125 I rode on the main track I ended up stalling twice on big sand hill climbs, but I also didn't have any momentum going in, and I was letting the revs drop while not fanning the clutch thinking I could tractor up if I avoided wheel spin. Yeah, not happening, after a bit I figured it out. The 150SX felt like it could have tolerated that slightly better, but I've not had a chance to ride one in the same conditions?

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  11. #11
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Quote Originally Posted by tucktuvak View Post
    Seems like this would be a lot of fun on a mx course:
    https://www.altamotors.co/redshift-mx#redshift-mx1

    Doesn't run on premix though...

    Edit: I guess they're not longer in operation, but BRP bought their assets, and I saw something about KTM making an e-bike too. If I had a bunch to spend I'd buy a cheap RM125 or something like that to last me till the ebikes come out!
    I loved the Altas, but they are HEAVY compared to what I'm used to. As a road / woods bike I bet one would be perfect for me, minus the whole company folding detail. I had financing lined up to buy one but backed out at the last moment just before their financial troubles started getting reported.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    So, what I understand about small bore MX bikes is that there is still nothing turning faster laptimes than the 125s. But the 150s are a touch more forgiving for an old/slow guy.
    That matches my understanding as well. You can see similar at Boxshop, the fastest bike overall is a CRF150R, they don't have the ability to out motor any of the larger machines but their smaller size and much lighter weight make them absolute weapons when it comes to dicing in the corners.

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  12. #12
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Like many other things kurlon, I’d say you’re over thinking this.

    A 125 on any mx track should be run at full song in the appropriate gear. That’s how they go. One should not be concerned with how they behave off the bottom.
    If you want bottom end, you need a different bike.

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    Lifer typeone's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    I've decided I want a new dirty toy. Specifically something that burns premix in the small and screamy size.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    If I'm fighting/hating the motor out of the crate ('cause lets face it, I'm too used to bikes that can be lugged, my smoker included) to the point that I'm lusting after a bore/stroker kit shortly after purchase, I bought the wrong machine.
    hmmm

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    Lifer
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Are you mostly envisioning riding lots of MX with it? It's a skill building bike more than a light-weight sumo bike? Because if the goal is a 'do it all' bike including trails, I might be looking more at the XC bikes than a straight up MX bike.

    I was just placing an order last night for my Yamaha and it's always impressive to see how many models over so many years have used exactly the same Part Number on various bits. There's something great about easy to find parts, and it keeps the door open real wide for ebay if you know how to craft searches well. I've learned the hard way that 'rare' or 'uncommon' goes in the cons column.

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  15. #15
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Like many other things kurlon, I’d say you’re over thinking this.

    A 125 on any mx track should be run at full song in the appropriate gear. That’s how they go. One should not be concerned with how they behave off the bottom.
    If you want bottom end, you need a different bike.
    Of COURSE I'm over thinking it. I have a spreadsheet and everything! Time is easy to throw at this for me. That said, I agree with you, and is part of why I'm thinking small bore, I'm too lazy in my riding in multiple aspects, shifting, clutch use, etc. All my prior machines have reinforced this in one way or another. I want something that'll encourage me out of this mold without stopping the party completely. Short woods and track time on them says despite my age and habits I can learn new tricks with the right feedback.

    Most likely this is going to come down to cost, personal bias has me leaning orange slightly? In the mean time though, this discussion is great!

    And to answer Alden yeah, this is a primarily MX bike for skill building plus more riding opportunities with friends. I had a ball at MX101 yesterday on the sumo, got a lot of confused looks, the guy running the gate asking "Are you serious?!" with my Boxshop crew in earshot was hilarious. That was good skill building as well (finally got the clutch so I can two finger it, but it's still stiff and my hand being reassembled surgically means I wear it out FAST) but I bet I'll learn faster on a proper MX setup.

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  16. #16
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    If I wanted to go the used route... https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...5748795538027/ has my attention. 8 hour round trip doesn't sound as cool though...

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  17. #17
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    For a 125, definitely go used. Lots never get ridden in anger.

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  18. #18
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Like many other things kurlon, I’d say you’re over thinking this.

    A 125 on any mx track should be run at full song in the appropriate gear. That’s how they go. One should not be concerned with how they behave off the bottom.
    If you want bottom end, you need a different bike.
    Amen.

    A few years ago I rebuilt an Ď01 CR125, motor, suspension and all consumables. If you canít make a more modern 125 work for you youíre just riding it wrong. Braap!

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  19. #19
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    I don’t know much about the new bikes your looking at. That said, with what your looking for I’m sure you can find any number of late model yz125 with nice suspension for half of what a new bike will go for and 98% of the fun. I’ve been searching (loosely) for a new dirty ride because mine is soft for the MX I’ve been riding lately. It’s definitely not going to be a small bore.

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  20. #20
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    The YZ125 really hasn't changed much over the years save for minor tweaks, other than the new X model coming out so going used doesn't loose much. The 150SX got a new motor in 2018, new frame in 2019, and a new countershaft in 2020... so that last update isn't a big deal.

    That said, every dirtbike I've owned (Other than the TTR) has been used and needed some level of TLC to bring it back to where I'm happy with it, I'm kinda OK with going new for once, particularly if going orange or alt blue so I can have the latest and greatest even if I'm too slow to take advantage of it.

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    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    It sounds like you’ve made your mind up then.
    The only other thing I’d consider is the other end. I reckon you’ll have a much easier time unloading the ktm when you’re done with it than the alt blue.

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  22. #22
    Lifer loudbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Do you intend on racing this at all? If so, the SX150 puts you into the 250/450 class. If that's not a concern and you're just doing open practice days I'd go for the SX150.

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  23. #23
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    It sounds like you’ve made your mind up then.
    The only other thing I’d consider is the other end. I reckon you’ll have a much easier time unloading the ktm when you’re done with it than the alt blue.
    I've enjoyed my limited seat time on the 150SX, I don't think I'd be making a mistake going that route. I'd really like a chance to run a YZ125 in the same conditions as a comparison, sandbox MX in the rain without prior experience there wasn't a good opportunity to really see if the bike 'egged me on' in the dirt like I'm hoping for. I'm close enough on the two that a good deal one way or another would easily sway me barring learning something new about either?

    You're spot on with your guess on ease of resale down the line, if I'm on the fence about buying one, they've got to be a tough sell across the board in the US. Then again, that wouldn't be new territory for me, see my prior bike history? Looks like I'll have an opportunity in Oct to actually see some TMs in the flesh, I may have one bike sold by then, if the R6 moves that adds more to the 'make bad decisions' budget...

    Quote Originally Posted by loudbeard View Post
    Do you intend on racing this at all? If so, the SX150 puts you into the 250/450 class. If that's not a concern and you're just doing open practice days I'd go for the SX150.
    If I race MX it'll be for giggles/learning only so getting put up against 250/450s in that scenario wouldn't bother me. When I've done it in the past (Stimilon) I knew I wasn't placing so this would be similar. If I put sumo wheels on it I've already had a taste of how the 150 would fare vs a 250/450 and I think it could do so on tight tracks, again mostly for fun as I've got a primary Sumo. Main goal though is open practice days, Clough trips, flattrack, Funbarton Ice, etc where the only class is 'Biggest Bench Bullshitter' and it slots right in. That and an MX school or three if I can find some.

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  24. #24
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    I'll only pipe in to say I'm bananas for my KTM 200. Mine is an XC-W that was converted to an XC-like trans using 150XC bits. Huge fun in Clough. Good 'nuf for Hatfield down in WV. Good 'nuf for ice, at least on canadians. I honestly prefer the 200 on canadians over my 450 on cheaters. It was a ball at Stimilon that one time I did MX too.

    I hear the new 150 is everything the old 200 used to be.

    I'm partial to the XC/XC-W approach and I don't trust the TPI systems; especially the oil injection. Thus I'd be on the hunt for a lightly used 150XC or XC-W with a carb. But that's me.

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  25. #25
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    Re: Kool-aide flavor fight

    As soon as I graduate I'll be getting a KTM 150 of some sort. HTH.

    (And with TPI, because I hate carbs.)

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