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KTM Freeride E-XC

  1. #26
    Lifer
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC


    Quote Originally Posted by Petorius View Post
    What does a replacement cost though? In that KTM article it says $3600 for spare packs, and those are being made by Samsung (which pumps them out at scale). The Alta one is proprietary I think.
    That's a good question. For some reason, I was thinking the cost wasn't bad, but I can't remember if I even had a number in mind or if I just made that up.

    Do the rough math on oil changes, air/oil filters, valve adjustments, spark plugs, carb work if not FI, any engine tuning work FI or not, replacement exhaust pipes, misc engine gaskets etc. No radiators to break, no radiator guards to buy. No shift lever to fail, or to punch through the case. Plus the time or money spent on labor. $3600 is a high bar for break-even, but never having to touch an engine in 500+ hrs sounds pretty sweet. 500hrs/20hr oil changes, which is probably a high interval for most, is 25 times. Add up the cost of misc. expenses on things like buying radiator guards or pulling out a dent on an expansion chamber, especially over say 5 years, and $3600 starts to sound a little more justifiable.

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  2. #27
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    And if recent history is an indicator, the cost of replacement packs will likely go down.
    The tech is just getting better and cheaper every day.

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  3. #28
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    And if recent history is an indicator, the cost of replacement packs will likely go down.
    The tech is just getting better and cheaper every day.
    DIY Battery assembly seems like a WONDERFUL idea...


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  4. #29
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    That's a good question. For some reason, I was thinking the cost wasn't bad, but I can't remember if I even had a number in mind or if I just made that up.

    Do the rough math on oil changes, air/oil filters, valve adjustments, spark plugs, carb work if not FI, any engine tuning work FI or not, replacement exhaust pipes, misc engine gaskets etc. No radiators to break, no radiator guards to buy. No shift lever to fail, or to punch through the case. Plus the time or money spent on labor. $3600 is a high bar for break-even, but never having to touch an engine in 500+ hrs sounds pretty sweet. 500hrs/20hr oil changes, which is probably a high interval for most, is 25 times. Add up the cost of misc. expenses on things like buying radiator guards or pulling out a dent on an expansion chamber, especially over say 5 years, and $3600 starts to sound a little more justifiable.
    The E-XC has traditional radiators behind the tank shrouds just like a regular machine. The Alta does not.

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  5. #30
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    For me it’s not so much about range but weight. Sure, 4-6hrs would be great but sub 200lb would be even better.
    It’s just a matter of time before these run on a cell phone battery.

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  6. #31
    Lifer
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    The E-XC has traditional radiators behind the tank shrouds just like a regular machine. The Alta does not.
    That's interesting. Looking at pictures, they seem about half the size. Does that imply they were struggling with heat management and/or that to achieve consistent battery functionality required cooling?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sideshow View Post
    For me it’s not so much about range but weight. Sure, 4-6hrs would be great but sub 200lb would be even better.
    It’s just a matter of time before these run on a cell phone battery.
    The YZ125 is 190lb dry, 208 wet. But agreed that in time, we'll probably be able to see something even lighter, and without a gyro in the middle.

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  7. #32
    Rookie Rada's Avatar
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    I was oogoling one at Edelmann Sales last week. Pretty swell machine. The spare battery cost is a bit much but overall the bike is cool. One hurdle I see is recharging requires 220V IIRC. I think the reality is that the battery life will work for most average riders too. If you look at actual motor on time for an average rider that will be enough. One major bonus is the small size. This will make a great chick bike for someone like my wife.

    From a riding standpoint I think it should still have a clutch to help manage traction. The dude at the dealer that rode one concurred. I think the time is right and electric bikes will sell well in the coming years. Edelmann's have already sold one.

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  8. #33
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    Quote Originally Posted by b0xmonkey View Post
    When they make these sound and smell like my 2T give me a call, till then......
    Dude, all ya gotta do is eat some beans n wash em down with a shot of 2t oil the night before ya ride. Easy peasy!

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 11-07-17 at 07:57 PM.
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  9. #34
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    Much less engine braking than a 4T, but felt like a little more than a 2T.
    I have read the same comment by multiple reviewers and I'm sure with a little tweaking of the motor controller parameters on these things they could set up whatever level of engine braking the rider desires.

    Not sure how they would get a clutch lever of sorts to work without adding complexity to the drive line. Right now it is likely a direct drive thing so to put something there to mimic a clutch may prove costly. Not really sure what the difference would be over just closing and opening the throttle, with the instant response of the electrics and torque on demand what would be the need for the clutch lever type device? Guessing this would be more of a learning curve to just get used to not having the lever and instead using the throttle to do the same things.

    I suppose they could put a lever controlling a variable resistance in line with the throttle output to give the feel of a clutch but that would really just waste power to give a clutch feel.

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  10. #35
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    They can probably add more engine braking, but I wasn't sure if that's as low as it'll get?

    From a technical perspective, I can see the future being an app in your phone to tweak all the parameters.

    Psuedo-clutch could just be an electronic pressure switch to modulate. Have it be a fractional multiplier on the power curve. Make it an optional accessory like they do with the ignition program switches.

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  11. #36
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    Quote Originally Posted by tls25rs View Post
    I have read the same comment by multiple reviewers and I'm sure with a little tweaking of the motor controller parameters on these things they could set up whatever level of engine braking the rider desires.

    Not sure how they would get a clutch lever of sorts to work without adding complexity to the drive line. Right now it is likely a direct drive thing so to put something there to mimic a clutch may prove costly. Not really sure what the difference would be over just closing and opening the throttle, with the instant response of the electrics and torque on demand what would be the need for the clutch lever type device? Guessing this would be more of a learning curve to just get used to not having the lever and instead using the throttle to do the same things.

    I suppose they could put a lever controlling a variable resistance in line with the throttle output to give the feel of a clutch but that would really just waste power to give a clutch feel.
    I bet the engineers could very easily make and electronically controlled "clutch" to simulate the real thing.
    When off throttle: zero engine braking when engaged, 4t simulated when disengaged.
    When on throttle: ramp down power when engaged, return power to throttle tube position to when disengaged.

    No variable resistance necessary... just 1's and 0's to control the little pixies.

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 11-07-17 at 06:56 PM.
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  12. #37

    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    I would divorce the YZ250 for that plated Alta!!

    (but don't tell her)

    Hmm...saw a CA built logo...maybe I can find a local test ride?

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    Last edited by breakdirt916; 11-07-17 at 07:48 PM.
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  13. #38
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    Quote Originally Posted by b0xmonkey View Post
    When they make these sound and smell like my 2T give me a call, till then......
    You know, I wonder how soon before "augmented sound" becomes a thing in the motorcycle world as well. My truck plays augmented engine noise via speakers because the turbo motor sound pretty ordinary by itself. BMW started this fakery years ago and other car manufacturers have been doing it for a while as well.

    I can forsee a scenario where you buy an electric bike and have a toggle on the handlebar to overlay different sound tracks of your liking. OK today I feel like an Aprilia V4... maybe on the way back from work I feel like a Harley...

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 11-07-17 at 08:55 PM.

  14. #39
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    DAS SOUNDAKTOR!

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  15. #40
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    I'm getting one and upgrading it with this.


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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 11-07-17 at 10:36 PM.
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  16. #41
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    Quote Originally Posted by tls25rs View Post
    I have read the same comment by multiple reviewers and I'm sure with a little tweaking of the motor controller parameters on these things they could set up whatever level of engine braking the rider desires.
    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    They can probably add more engine braking, but I wasn't sure if that's as low as it'll get?
    yes, there is a video somewhere discussing the ability to tune the engine breaking / traction control / mapping to whatever they desire. Alta has been testing and prefecting the presets to make it simple for the rider but the adjustablity seems endless otherwise. love how they're putting so much time and effort into the feel so that it's familiar. huge element to conversion ... other than price and run time.

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  17. #42
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    Quote Originally Posted by aldend123 View Post
    They can probably add more engine braking, but I wasn't sure if that's as low as it'll get?

    From a technical perspective, I can see the future being an app in your phone to tweak all the parameters.
    Quote Originally Posted by typeone View Post
    yes, there is a video somewhere discussing the ability to tune the engine breaking / traction control / mapping to whatever they desire. Alta has been testing and prefecting the presets to make it simple for the rider but the adjustablity seems endless otherwise. love how they're putting so much time and effort into the feel so that it's familiar. huge element to conversion ... other than price and run time.
    Absolutely correct, this is from another KTM article, artificial engine braking thru regenerative braking: 2018 KTM Freeride E-XC First Look | 14 Fast Facts

    There are three power modes—Eco, Enduro, and Cross. The Eco mode has the softest power, and allows for regeneration of the battery when coasting. The Enduro mode is for serious off-roading, while the Cross is the most aggressive and suited to natural terrain motocross tracks. There is no regeneration function in Enduro and Cross modes, as KTM feels that it makes the bike slow down too quickly when the throttle is closed.
    And the ZERO SX has the control technology, so just a matter of time till the upgrade should be available / ready for the off-road application. This is a quote from a review of the ZERO SX:

    There's almost no engine braking in sports mode, but you can dial that up a bit through a Bluetooth-connected mobile app that lets you set peak power, top speed, regenerative braking and "engine braking" parameters through your phone. A nifty display on the dash shows how much power and torque you're putting out when you're on the throttle, and how much you're pulling back in on the brakes.
    With the speed of development I wouldn't think it will be long before Alta & KTM offer complete control ala ZERO.

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  18. #43
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    The zero is not exactly a high performer though. So what they offer in control may not be good enough for racers, etc. Alta seems to have the most development time in in different disciplines. Though, KTM has much bigger resources, and may be out ahead despite lack of social marketing.

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  19. #44
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    The ability to have traction control, regen modes, gain/curve on throttle, maps, etc has all been around for years on RC cars, including in a LiPo battery/brushless motor scenario.

    Super easy to adjust, and Zero's app should eventually come with an "advanced" mode that allows the users to adjust all the variables manually, instead of just having 3 "profiles".

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  20. #45
    ^ It's my bike and my car tls25rs's Avatar
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    I bet the engineers could very easily make and electronically controlled "clutch" to simulate the real thing.
    When off throttle: zero engine braking when engaged, 4t simulated when disengaged.
    When on throttle: ramp down power when engaged, return power to throttle tube position to when disengaged.

    No variable resistance necessary... just 1's and 0's to control the little pixies.
    Oh I know it is just 1s and 0s and a motor controller that will do this my sticking point is that there will be two separate inputs controlling the same thing at the same time. There would be the throttle input and the clutch input that would have to seamlessly integrate with each other in a fairly complex manner in order to get the action of the clutch lever to work with the throttle input and get the rear wheel to do what the rider is actually asking for. Definitely not impossible to do just fairly complex to work through all of the desired scenarios and make the 1s and 0s do what the rider wants. Especially when not all riders want the same thing the same way.

    The other part of this I just was thinking about is that our clutch levers now are not digital, i.e. on or off, in action and therefore the electrical pseudo clutch wouldn't be either which would in fact need some type of variable input like a fly by wire type device which when broken down is a variable resistor. Pull it in half way it does something different than if it is pulled in all the way or just slightly. Same on deceleration as it would be on acceleration. How else would someone modulate their clutch lever to control engine braking level heading into a corner instead of a mechanical slipper clutch.

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    Last edited by tls25rs; 11-08-17 at 09:58 AM. Reason: a few more thoughts

  21. #46
    Lifer typeone's Avatar
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    screw the pseudo-clutch, LHRB for me, but keep the foot lever too.. .

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  22. #47
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    A rheostat or potentiometer could be used on a brake lever to modulate engine braking quite easily.

    In fact, you could eliminate the rear brake hardware completely and let the engine do all the braking. = saving unsprung weight. Still keep your brake pedal, just actuates and electrical circuit that varies the amount of generation back to the battery.

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  23. #48
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    A rheostat or potentiometer could be used on a brake lever to modulate engine braking quite easily.

    In fact, you could eliminate the rear brake hardware completely and let the engine do all the braking. = saving unsprung weight. Still keep your brake pedal, just actuates and electrical circuit that varies the amount of generation back to the battery.
    That sounds smart. Having just bent a disc proper a few weeks ago, I support this message.

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  24. #49
    Lifer typeone's Avatar
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIglu View Post
    A rheostat or potentiometer could be used on a brake lever to modulate engine braking quite easily.

    In fact, you could eliminate the rear brake hardware completely and let the engine do all the braking. = saving unsprung weight. Still keep your brake pedal, just actuates and electrical circuit that varies the amount of generation back to the battery.
    would (mechanically) work similar to ATK's countershaft brake setup but i wonder if you'd need the funky A-TRAK chain torque eliminator setup as well. haven't read about that stuff in a while.

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  25. #50
    Rookie Rada's Avatar
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    Re: KTM Freeride E-XC

    I still think it needs a real clutch and real brakes. If i want to freewheel down a hill then I want to freewheel down a hill dammit.. Lol

    I think it would take some real reprogramming of the rider to figure out how to deal with low traction climbs without the use of the clutch to maintain grip...

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