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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
e30addict
Fire it up on your property to load it in your truck and boom. Why u no pay tax? DEP mad.
But hey, they're only following the law......
See exact text of law above. I don't see how that counts as 'operation'. Riding it off the truck, sure. But it seems like it is totally acceptable to put it in the truck and leave the state. The more realistic scenario is a test lap around the yard after putting the carb back on.
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Originally Posted by
tls25rs
Basically if you own a motorcycle/vehicle that isn't street registered in MA it theoretically needs to be OHRV registered to be able to legally use it in the state of MA. For instance if they wanted to get technical and start enforcing things all these track day only bikes that were purchased and the sales tax never paid would need to be OHRV reg'd in order to be ridden at Palmer.
Now that's an interesting question. I don't think track bikes count as recreational vehicles by their definition but I could see that one being disputed.
''Recreation vehicle'' or ''off-highway vehicle'', any motor vehicle designed or modified for use over unimproved terrain for recreation or pleasure while not being operated on a public way as defined in chapter 90 including, but not limited to, all-terrain vehicles, off-highway motorcycles, dirt bikes, recreation utility vehicles and all registered motor vehicles while not being operated on a public way as defined in said chapter 90; provided, however, that recreation vehicles and off-highway vehicles operated exclusively for agricultural, forestry, lumbering or construction purposes shall not be subject to this chapter and it shall be an affirmative defense that such vehicle was being operated for such purposes at the time of an alleged violation of this chapter.
I think the key is 'unimproved' terrain though if we really want to go full legalese, I wonder if a moto track really counts as unimproved if it isn't already defined elsewhere in Chapter 90.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
tls25rs
Typically riding areas are trying to be closed down to motorcycles and ATVs by other use groups that don't contribute a dime towards the trail maintenance. Hikers, horse back riders, mountain bikers etc. all look at OHRV as the devil and somehow get the gov't to agree with them and close the trails even though a good portion of the trails these groups use to do their activities were established long ago by OHRV use.
Hodges is really a prime example of what everyone should be looking at to solve this. litterally almost every activity is going on down there and it all runs year in and and year out smoothly. all groups enjoying their particular actiivty, sometimes at the same time.
you're always going to have people butting heads but when other groups, like horse people, back dirt bikers, something special is going on there. maybe it's a few isolated cases, but i'm entering my 11th year riding there and it's still jammin.
EDIT: i'm not saying any of the above comes easily, but something is working.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
I said fire it up and load it on the truck. Technically you operated it unless you never mounted it. Technically, if we follow the letter of the law, it needs to regged with proof of sales tax paid.
Highly unlikely yes, but still technically correct. It is the law after all :rolleyes:
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
nhbubba
Is there some sort of exemption that groups can apply for to cover a special event. Ie if I go to a NETRA event in Freetown and ride without a sticker, am I in violation? Or am I covered by some sort of special use permit that NETRA applied for?
My $0.02 is with Smutty. Officers have (or at least demonstrate) a tremendous amount of latitude in what they enforce and what they don't. So yes, if they show up and ticket me for riding an organized event at a private MX course I'm going to be pissed and I'm going to take it out on them. Surely they understand how absurd this situation is?!
I cannot understand how machine regs can be required for riding on private land. That's ridiculous. Are you going to start registering bicycles next? What about hiking shoes? Does your lawn mower? Or maybe that qualifies as an agricultural implement? Just ridiculous.
Leave the riders alone. Get your revenue somewhere else. (Like maybe from the tax on the fuel they pump on the way to the event, from the food they buy when there, and maybe the hotel room they rent the night before.)
My new plan is to simply not ride dirt in MA. Ever.
you know that nobody got a ticket right?
also, out of state residents WERE given an exemption for closed course competition. Does NH return that favor? how about for recreational use? I as a mass resident MUST purchase a NH permit to ride there, regardless of my street reg or ma ORV permit, so it's largely the same scenario.
"yeah, but nh grants better access, and does more trail work"... I happen to have it first hand that the state paid for some equipment and the man hours and the material to do a bunch of work in Freetown. that's a good enough reason for me to cough up the $40 every 2 years.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
aldend123
Now that's an interesting question. I don't think track bikes count as recreational vehicles by their
definition but I could see that one being disputed.
...............including, but not limited to,........ and all registered motor vehicles while not being operated on a public way as defined in said chapter 90
The loop holes they could use are these.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
Chippertheripper
Does NH return that favor? how about for recreational use? I as a mass resident MUST purchase a NH permit to ride there, regardless of my street reg or ma ORV permit, so it's largely the same scenario.
Yes, it "returns" the favor. IIRC you are not required to have a NH OHV permit to ride NHMX, MX 101.. or my little pony track out back. Come on up. Lets ride.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chippertheripper
I happen to have it first hand that the state paid for some equipment and the man hours and the material to do a bunch of work in Freetown. that's a good enough reason for me to cough up the $40 every 2 years.
Agreed. NH does the same with areas like Clough. Rode a chair skiing with a cat that runs dozers out at Clough every summer to groom the kiddie trail and keep the erosion in check. State employee. His pay comes from my reg fees. Perfect sense.
Clubs like MVTR and the two ATV clubs that are active there do volunteer work parties too. No different.
I'll reiterate; to ride state land (including ponds in the winter) should require a permit and fee. No argument.
To ride a privately owned MX course or my own back yard? Hell no.
Or if you are going to tax the MX courses, at least kick something back to 'em. Not everyone rides public woods. Those cats shouldn't have to pay for your playground. Nor should you pay entry to Crow Hill when you're riding Freetown.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
typeone
can you even ride dirt in CT? Rocky Hill MX, Central MX, Milford MX ... that it? Thomaston Dam has never been clear to me how that works. only raced there. ah, thinking now, that's another ACE project, right?
I'm a member at Central... So yeah. Pretty important to me.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
typeone
come on. that scenario is not going to happen.
How many people said that 7 years ago when talking about the private tracks? I agree that would be unlikely, but if we play the black vs white game here, that's how it falls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
aldend123
Now that's an interesting question. I don't think track bikes count as recreational vehicles by their definition but I could see that one being disputed.
''Recreation vehicle'' or ''off-highway vehicle'', any motor vehicle designed or modified for use over unimproved terrain for recreation or pleasure while not being operated on a public way as defined in chapter 90 including, but not limited to, all-terrain vehicles, off-highway motorcycles, dirt bikes, recreation utility vehicles and all registered motor vehicles while not being operated on a public way as defined in said chapter 90; provided, however, that recreation vehicles and off-highway vehicles operated exclusively for agricultural, forestry, lumbering or construction purposes shall not be subject to this chapter and it shall be an affirmative defense that such vehicle was being operated for such purposes at the time of an alleged violation of this chapter.
There is a gray area here in regards to "street" track bikes. But, anybody with a supermoto (re: "dirtbike") would fall under this law...
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
MHenry600
There is a gray area here in regards to "street" track bikes. But, anybody with a supermoto (re: "dirtbike") would fall under this law...
If it's been set up to be used on a race track, then I don't see how it is still 'for use over unimproved terrain'.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MHenry600
How many people said that 7 years ago when talking about the private tracks? I agree that would be unlikely, but if we play the black vs white game here, that's how it falls.
i don't think anyone knows what is going on with private tracks, that's why i started this thread. if Robby Marshall and John Day provided the community with answers or sensible input, we would know more.
here is what Southwick has said as of a few hours ago:
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Other than their (MA EPO/DCR) open statement that they would not approach legitimate, insured and regulated racing facilities and the recent phone conversations, we've had no communication with them.
we need the EPO and Crow Hill to provide more info on Sunday's visit. what was said at the gate? "Hey, you're all fucked, bend over" ... yet no tickets were issued (?) i know it wasn't a nice encounter but motocrossers can be an unforgiving crowd. all parties would be wound up immediately.
and also, MA ORV laws had nothing to do with the Gillette SX situation. i don't know much but got confirmation on that. it was a Feld / Kraft issue.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
No one knows what the tax collectors are going to do.
The very first step of "go to the race and take some vins, just to scare them into registering even though we'll never really tax em" versus the very first step of "go to the race and take some vins with the intention of making a TON of money but don't tax em till later, when we can get em one by one, because to tax them at the race will cause an uprising" are the same.
The two alternative actions that follow the taking of vins are mainly separated by the huge amount of money part, and who ever worried about such a trivial thing...surely not the powers that be at a government agency with awesome jobs and pensions who are certain to have their balance sheet analyzed at the end of each year by the state. Of coooooouuuuurse it's all to find stolen bikes and teach little kids how to ride, and not to improve their worth to the politicians higher up who determine the size of the agency's future budget, by bilking a ton of money from the most obnoxious, obviously discretionary-cash flush segment of our society, dirt bike riders, who are blatantly breaking the law after they were warned.
Pfft, obviously they won't EVER use the vins. Smh tin hatters...
(Whether they do or not, they will make bags of money from reg fees and taxes)
It's really ALL about the taxes. There are millions in them hills...how many times does each dirt bike change hands, each time triggering a tax event to the tune of hundreds of dollars to the state? ..IF ONLY THEY COULD ENFORCE PAYMENT OF THEM EACH TIME....how to do that? ...turn our woods and races into the same nightmare that our highways are...a place where you can be taxed by some arrogant asshole with a badge at any time. Next come the speed limits and annual bike inspections.
And we need to have the government teach our kids how to ride dirt bikes, now, too? That's just blasphemy. Absolutely sickening. You learn how to ride dirtbikes the time honored way, and only that way: hitting trees, going over the bars, and getting punched in the face for taking others out.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
Imbeek
It's really ALL about the taxes. There are millions in them hills...how many times does each dirt bike change hands, each time triggering a tax event to the tune of hundreds of dollars to the state? ..IF ONLY THEY COULD ENFORCE PAYMENT OF THEM EACH TIME....how to do that? ...turn our woods and races into the same nightmare that our highways are...a place where you can be taxed by some arrogant asshole with a badge at any time. Next come the speed limits and annual bike inspections.
The solution you're implying is that we keep the system in place where many people never bother to pay sales tax. Except we are all supposed to pay sales tax on everything else we buy. You see the dilemma? You're basically accusing them of manipulating the system in a money-grab effort when in reality it's just gone unenforced for decades. Do you think we need to exempt sales tax from used goods? Does that include used street bikes and used cars? I think the new vehicle industry might have a justifiable issue with that. Exempt private party sales? Have an amount like $5000 a year you can spend before sales tax applies on used goods?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
e30addict
I said fire it up and load it on the truck. Technically you operated it unless you never mounted it. Technically, if we follow the letter of the law, it needs to regged with proof of sales tax paid.
Highly unlikely yes, but still technically correct. It is the law after all :rolleyes:
My mistake, I misread your previous post. I agree you described operation of.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
My point about the money at stake in sales taxes wasn't an argument to let them slide, it was evidence, in the form of motive, of how we are being bullshitted into more regulation and intrusions into our freedom, for tax reasons, under the guise of safety.
As it stands, every bike I own is titled and therefore already had sales tax paid; that's not the point. The point is, I still have to pay a registration fee and deal with more big brother bullshit, even though I've never ridden at any legal state land that I'm aware of, in part of a state plan to simply get more money. Don't show up at a race with a halfass swat team, in a recon mission for future collection of more money, and try to justify it as some honorable quest for safety and necessary regulation because some poor kid got paralyzed. Just properly identify yourselves as tax agents, and then maybe the subjects, who as a group maybe didn't excel in civics class, will have a better idea of where to voice their frustrations over being charged for the apparently government granted privilege of using, on private land, the dirt bike that they bought with hard earned, taxed income, paid sales tax on, paid excise tax on, maintained with taxed parts, stored in a taxed garage, and paid tolls to transport in a sales taxed, excise taxed, registered, and annually inspected for a state fee vehicle that they filled with taxed fuel, but hopefully didn't exceed any rules of the road or else get taxed by some jack booted tax collectors wearing different colors than the ones at the dirt bike races
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
^ and that is exactly why the track owners should have been present and involved BEFORE we let it get this far. i believe NETRA when they say they were left out in the cold. now we're seeing the shit hit the fan.
to the non-riders, dirt bikes are all the same in where and how they're used but we know that's not true as you illustrate above by not visiting state forests for riding. i don't think that point has been pushed very hard yet. as stuipd as that sounds.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imbeek
My point about the money at stake in sales taxes wasn't an argument to let them slide, it was evidence, in the form of motive, of how we are being bullshitted into more regulation and intrusions into our freedom, for tax reasons, under the guise of safety.
(..)
the dirt bike that they bought with hard earned, taxed income, paid sales tax on, paid excise tax on, maintained with taxed parts, stored in a taxed garage, and paid tolls to transport in a sales taxed, excise taxed, registered, and annually inspected for a state fee vehicle that they filled with taxed fuel, but hopefully didn't exceed any rules of the road or else get taxed by some jack booted tax collectors wearing different colors than the ones at the dirt bike races
You'll still need civics class skills before protesting a tax. Tax collection can be done in various ways and we employ a mixture of sales, income, and property tax. If you're saying we should all be outraged by another tax, the money we spend must come from some where. Are you trying to imply that we are being assigned an unreasonable amount of taxes compared to other states? Then you'd have to calculate an effective tax to compare. You can't just stomp your feet and say 'but I don't wanna pay'.
If this is all about revenue generation, why didn't they write fines last weekend? Or the year before, or the past 5 years? They get to keep 25% of the fines too.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
Aldend123 do you work for the state?
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
bstnsboy
Aldend123 do you work for the state?
Nope. I would have said that if I did. Or had some numbers handy. And it takes like 15 minutes to read the relevant law. Why?
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
csmutty
Netra blows.
Sweet context.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
been talking with The Wick. as of yesterday, they've had some very positive conversations with the EPO/DCR and plan to continue the conversation in person, at the track.
this is the kind of stuff i want to see. open communication at an adult level. dig it.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
aldend123
Nope. I would have said that if I did. Or had some numbers handy. And it takes like 15 minutes to read the relevant law. Why?
I was just curious. Your take on all this seem's like you might have been a state employee. Not that that's a bad thing. I have no problem paying sales tax or registration if the money actually went to opening new trail systems for all riders. atv's,utv's all motorized toys.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
I'll just leave this here....
http://www.wcvb.com/article/5-invest...n-duty/8280435
These guys have zero morals, are "set" with their cushy gig. They are not here to help anyone and are certainly doing jack all to protect the environment.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bstnsboy
I was just curious. Your take on all this seem's like you might have been a state employee. Not that that's a bad thing. I have no problem paying sales tax or registration if the money actually went to opening new trail systems for all riders. atv's,utv's all motorized toys.
Chicken and egg on the trails. If no one is registering, then what money do they have to expand?
And I think if we are going to have meaningful conversation about it, we need to go beyond just saying things along the lines of 'I hate fees, taxation is theft, state robbing us'.
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
OK, so I *think* I have an answer regarding how a non-resident would complete an OHV registration in MA. I sent an email to the EEA via their online form and got this in response:
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Dear Duncan,
You’ll need the documents listed below to register your outstate OHV. Yes, you need to have your OHV registered in Massachusetts in order for you to use it.
-Check payment of $33 made payable to “Comm., of Mass”
-Attached completed and signed application.
-Copy of out state registration if registered in another state or if you’ve never had it registered, you’ll need a bill of sale and Manufacturer’s Statement of Origin if purchased brand new
-Proof of payment of Mass Sales Tax receipt which can be paid online at
https://mtc.dor.state.ma.us/mtc/_/ also call DOR 800-392-6089 with any questions.
Once you have all the paperwork, you’ll need to mail your paperwork to an office location near you from the link below.
Access Denied
Sincerely,
Linah Kunobwa
Executive Office of Energy and Environmental Affairs
Registration and Titling Bureau
The most interesting part being this:
So I called the EEA and asked them specifically about why a non-resident would need to pay sales tax, that must be a mistake. Not exactly. The EEA needs a form from the MA DOR stating the tax situation for the bike in question is resolved. Out of state riders should fill out the Form ST-6E, for sales tax exemption. On that form, you should fill out line 3 for Reason of Exemption. I *think* but the DOR isn't answering their phone, and instead of being able to leave a message it's "we're really busy call back later." :redface:
So, steps to a non-resident to register in MA:
1.) Fill out Form ST-6E and mail to MA DOR
2.) Receive certificate of tax back from DOR
3.) Send in DOR form with the above requirements listed by the EEA
This is an extremely convoluted process. God bless you, NH, for being able to swing by the bait and tackle shop to pick up a sticker for my dirty bike on the way to the trails...
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Re: MA OHV Laws - 2017 Edition
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Originally Posted by
Pinned
So, steps to a non-resident to register in MA:
1.) Fill out Form ST-6E and mail to MA DOR
2.) Receive certificate of tax back from DOR
3.) Send in DOR form with the above requirements listed by the EEA
your post triggered my memory... in Worcester you can do everything at one location as long as you have the proper documents with you.
if you are a MA resident and paid sales tax to the dealer, you would also use Form ST-6E. i went across the hall from the reg office and had Form ST-6E filled out for me, then back to the reg office to complete steps to get my stickers. EDIT: the process was quick and smooth, i had a 2 y/o with me, we were in and out.
Reg offices are in Boston, Fall River, Hyannis, Worcester and Springfield. i've only used the Worcester location so not sure how the other offices are set up.