What makes the fast woods guys so fast?

[gregp]

After a short rip session at theothersean’s place last Sunday, on the way home my friend and I got to talking about what makes the fast guys so fast in the woods. Both of us can ride reasonably quickly, but we both know several guys who can blow us away without even trying. My friend is a retired NETRA “A” Enduro rider, so he is no slouch. In a few minutes, we came to the conclusion that what these super-fast guys do, pretty much every time the get in the saddle, is brake slide every turn, with an instant transition into a power slide. They do this at almost every single corner, regardless of entry speed, trail conditions, or terrain. They also almost never sit down, which is pretty much a prerequisite for this style of riding.
At my age, my knees are pretty much shot, and I am way out of shape to boot, but I am going to practice this technique as much as I can.

[Paul_E_D]

Seamless cornering is sweet. Riding hard enough to do that in every corner would certainly make you fast. Greg, I'm sure you know this, but others might not. I don't think it's a brake slide as in: lock rear, skid, turn, gas. It's more like carry the throttle so deep that you are trail braking and downshifting hard enough to back it in, and then getting back on it even before the rear end has fully hooked up.

Also, The faster you go, the less obstacles you hit. Speed begets more speed in this case. Riding slow is a recipe to stay slow.

[theothersean]

it could also have a lot to do with the bike , the set up etc.
I certainly ride my trails faster on my YZ450 than i do on my Wr250r and I don;t think its necessarily the power , the yz just doesn't like to go slow, it doesn't lug well down low , and the wr gets out of shape quickly if I get going too fast on it . so suspension set up is a huge factor I am sure the "fast guys" are probaly on a dialed in set up or are running aftermarket.

Obviously it is still relative to years of exp. and skill level , but size of balls is a big factor too.


And glad you guys had fun the other day

[Chippertheripper]

Yeah, all that and a total disregard for whatever's on the other side, round the corner, just under the surface of that water, or behind the next obstacle.

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

Ask Peter Kates he is the Fastest woods Rider I know.

[OreoGaborio]

Ask Peter Kates he is the Fastest woods Rider I know.

PK's trick is to pick out which trees he ISN'T going to hit and bounce off the rest like a ping pong ball.

[R7]

Also, The faster you go, the less obstacles you hit. Speed begets more speed in this case.

This is what the parts guy (AA enduro rider) at my local dealer pretty much said. While most riders would see a series of 5 obstacles, the fast guy is hitting the first one and clearing the other 4.
Also, they ride and train more than most people even think of riding.
The rear brake slide as mentioned by Greg has sure helped me pick the pace up a bit..even more so with the 2-stroke. Think I'm getting close to a -C rider level
I was also surprised after spectating the WoodsOCross scramble 2 weeks ago to see most A/AA riders sitting in some of the technical sections

[tsorfas]

i miss riding dirt but for some reason i was always feeling more comfortable on street bikes..
its def a good time though

[Chippertheripper]

i miss riding dirt but for some reason i was always feeling more comfortable on street bikes..
its def a good time though

duh, it's way less WORK.

[KB]

I heart dirty riding!

Some guys are just nucking futs!!!

KB

[breakdirt916]

in my head (about the terrain):

"you've gotta be kidding me..."

and the pro guys will just fly through it!

[backinthesaddle]

Alot is timing, reading the terrain and taking the right lines, smoothness, experience. I know guys who swear by XR200's and other small bikes in the tight NE woods and will ahead of just about anyone, even now in their "older" days. They might not be the fastest in any one section, but by time the ride is over they are waiting for some of the other blast, coast, blast coast type riders on larger bikes.

[Pigman]

BIG BALLS.

[backinthesaddle]

Narrow bars

[Chippertheripper]

Seat time.

[Paul_E_D]

Definitely can't get there without seat time, but you can do all the seat time in the world and not necessarily get fast.

[union]

I think a lot of it is putting yourself in a position on the bike where its easy to deal with the unexpected. Anyone can ride quick on a nice smooth surface. Just sit there and pin it.

[gregp]

Sean's place is an amazing area to ride. It has some very technical spots that would be considered "stoppers" in an organized event. Most of the trail sections are very tight and I have difficulty setting up for a brake slide in most of the corners. Pete, otoh, is able to flick that mighty 520 through there like nobody's business. My KDX is very nimble, but the speeds just do not compare. The KDX's geometry seems more suited to "driving the front wheel", Pete's 520 rear suspension seems to sack down a bit, and stay there, lending itself to a very chopper-esq geometry.
Another time that I rode with another A (or AA) rider, Barry Avery, he was on a new KTM200 at the time. When we got back to the truck, I asked him how he liked the bike. His response surprised me - He said that the rear suspension was fine, as long as he backed the spring preload way off, and let it sack right out. Again, he wanted the "chopper" set up. I guess that this lets him pin the throttle over the nasty, choppy stuff, and retain stability. He did not need quick steering geometry for his riding style. He simply slid the back end, either by power, or by brake, to get the bike to turn.
And, Yes, If you do not cut your bars down, you will never be able to get through the trees at all in New England.

[gmdboston]

PK's trick is to pick out which trees he ISN'T going to hit and bounce off the rest like a ping pong ball.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.....

[Chippertheripper]

Sure cutting bars helps you squeeze through some stuff, but it also reduces leverage and thus: wears you out faster. Find a happy medium, I guess.
Paul, I was just keeping with the theme of two word responses. I'll continue that with: decent suspension.

[backinthesaddle]

If you don't cut them down so much you can use some Bark Busters to save the hands. I always rode my mx bikes in the tight RI woods with the factory length bars, might wear yourself out by working the wider bars back and forth between the trees. Man I miss my CR's (the 125's, the 250, and the 500, but maybe the 250 most of all).

[netra709]

I think the simple answer is to turn the throttle to the stops every chance you get, and keep grabbing gears. I used to get in the rut of going through a section at what I thought has fast enough, only to get passed. When I started turning the throttle to the stops, and grabbing every gear available I started running up front. That and brake late, and get back on the throttle early.

[gregp]

LOL. Easier said, than done, Dan. But I *have* seen you race.
O.M.G.!

[daviid]

the lack of self preservation usually helps

[seth399]

Its just like fast mx riders...where ever you are letting off the throttle, stop doing that. Wherever you are braking, brake later. Wherever you are getting on the throttle, get on it earlier. Whatever crappy lines you are taking, take better ones. Of course, it isn't that simple...you need to do this all while having great technique, so body position/cornering position/etc

You'll also notice that fast riders like to smooth out whatever they can on the course, braking bumps/whoops and also with roots/rocks/crap in the woods. Skipping through/doubling rather than just bashing through with the throttle on.