School me on user friendly dirtbike/motard stands

[Kurlon]

Gotcha. The silmoto would be awesome, but they are over a grand! With a silmoto, AF1 filter and an Alice racing map reflash, the SXV makes 75 hp, and came out 9 years ago!

Behold the power of 40hr piston replacement intervals.

[xxaarraa]

Behold the power of 40hr piston replacement intervals.

That is only if you get 40 hours on it in the first place, without the engine or tranny blowing up!

What puzzles me is why that over the top, outrageously over specced niche hasn't been filled by anyone else since the SXV died off. Seems the rest of the field has stagnated at 45-50hp for well over a decade.

[Kurlon]

I think the Aprilia soured the market a bit. When it came out it was fast, but it was also a maint whore and heavy. By the time they finally got it more reliable and lighter (RXV) it still had aggressive maint intervals and was getting matched by the other brands on the track. (Granted that's usually with a little massaging, but still easier / cheaper maint than the Aprilia.)

The big four know exactly how to get more power out of their motors, but they also know what the maint and warranty costs will be to do so. Everything they put onto showroom floors sells so... why rock the boat? Meanwhile KTM / Husky / Berg / etc have their niche carved out with their big boy lumpy thumpers for those who think a 450 is a girl's bike.

[xxaarraa]

I think the Aprilia soured the market a bit. When it came out it was fast, but it was also a maint whore and heavy. By the time they finally got it more reliable and lighter (RXV) it still had aggressive maint intervals and was getting matched by the other brands on the track. (Granted that's usually with a little massaging, but still easier / cheaper maint than the Aprilia.)

The big four know exactly how to get more power out of their motors, but they also know what the maint and warranty costs will be to do so. Everything they put onto showroom floors sells so... why rock the boat? Meanwhile KTM / Husky / Berg / etc have their niche carved out with their big boy lumpy thumpers for those who think a 450 is a girl's bike.

Not to sidetrack my own thread, but this topic fascinates me and I have had sidebars with Ductard on the same.

Kurlon, I am not sure I entirely buy your POV that modern singles are faster / as fast as the SXV. Yes, they are lighter, no doubt. But not light enough to make 50 hp faster than 75 hp. Let's do the math. In cars, roughly 10 lbs of weight is the equivalent of 1 hp. I have no idea what the equation is in bikes. But I do know that 25 hp is a LOT more than the 30-40 lbs the modern 450s undercut the SXV in weight. And that's before you factor in the extra revs and torque you get from a vtwin compared to a single. Torque and revs are not trivial.

Hear you on the Big 4 being run by accountants. I stood next to some sort of special edition CBR1000 last weekend. The owner said it was a special edition, I didn't catch what it was. It had rubber brake lines, fake carbon fiber stickers to make it look like carbon bodywork, no electronics and brembo calipers that were 2 generations out of date. Being run by accountants is how you become irrelevant and stagnate. Precisely what I think has happened to the motard class over the last 10 years.

[Ductard]

That is only if you get 40 hours on it in the first place, without the engine or tranny blowing up!

What puzzles me is why that over the top, outrageously over specced niche hasn't been filled by anyone else since the SXV died off. Seems the rest of the field has stagnated at 45-50hp for well over a decade.

I would guess that the market for 75hp motards isn't that big?

From my understanding there aren't that many tight, technical "full size" tracks like NHMS for motards. Elsewhere motards run on go-cart tracks, which I understand do things like limiting displacement to 250cc's....so there's more money in making MX machines that people occasionally turn into asphalt weapons (I bet you have to be very skilled to use 75 hp off-road, and to most people it would just be scary.)

...unless street- motards blow my theory out of the water, but considering that the DRZ-400 seems to be one of the more popular ones, I'd guess there's a gap between people who want real motards at the expense of power, and people who want high-powered machines that are sort of motards but not really (Ducati Hypermotard)....I'm guessing manufacturers didn't see big enough of a market to warrant the investment.

[Ductard]

Hear you on the Big 4 being run by accountants. I stood next to some sort of special edition CBR1000 last weekend. The owner said it was a special edition, I didn't catch what it was. It had rubber brake lines, fake carbon fiber stickers to make it look like carbon bodywork, no electronics and brembo calipers that were 2 generations out of date. Being run by accountants is how you become irrelevant and stagnate. Precisely what I think has happened to the motard class over the last 10 years.

Or run by marketers that know if you slap "special edition" on something, people will pay many $000's and take it to bike night, even if the performance is below what you could do with the base model and aftermarket upgrades.

Don't forget that most street bikes will never see the track, or be ridden by anyone who thinks performance is anything more than straight-line acceleration and plush suspension.

cars, roughly 10 lbs of weight is the equivalent of 1 hp.

I know you said "roughly" but I bet that varies widely from track to track.

As an example, you notice the Loudon track records / bump thresholds are the same for a 600 and a liter bike?

I know the 1,000cc bikes have to be picking up a lot of time on the straights, but apparently it just isn't enough to do anything more than make up for the added weight, poorer handling.

[typeone]

Gotcha. The silmoto would be awesome, but they are over a grand! With a silmoto, AF1 filter and an Alice racing map reflash, the SXV makes 75 hp, and came out 9 years ago!

yup, that's how i had it set up although i switched from the AF1 filter to Pipercross. cant remember now but i don't think i liked the cage on the AF1 filter. moving from spokes/tubes to the Marchesini's was a nice upgrade as well. could feel the difference immediately.

wish i could have kept it (pic, pic, pic, pic)

[xxaarraa]

yup, that's how i had it set up although i switched from the AF1 filter to Pipercross. cant remember now but i don't think i liked the cage on the AF1 filter. moving from spokes/tubes to the Marchesini's was a nice upgrade as well. could feel the difference immediately.

wish i could have kept it (pic, pic, pic, pic)

that is a thing of beauty typeone! I know you don't want to hear it for it probably makes you regret letting it go even more

Tell me about those rims man - what model (or what bike are they off of, in the used market) and how much? I do not like the spoked wheel concept at all. Would much rather have "regular" alloy wheels that don't need tubes and can be reliably balanced.

[Kurlon]

Kurlon, I am not sure I entirely buy your POV that modern singles are faster / as fast as the SXV.

Where the SXV's power advantage is of any use (BIIIG tracks) motards don't tend to bother playing 'cause it's too boring. Where the motards do congregate the SXV's advantage on paper is lost due to limited traction and limited opportunity to stretch it's legs and that weight penalty gets amplified. As I said, at the track, under competition the SXV never dominated against the other dirty bikes. NHMS was about the best case scenario for the Aprilia and still they were barely a flash in the pan. The most I remember one being talked about was when one was racing PTwins for a short while.

[R7]

I have an MSR HP stand that's been solid. Have been using it for 5 years, and no unusual wear and tear issues, and the bikes are very stable on it. It's super easy to lift the bike with (have even used it to lift my 400+ lb 450R mx quad) and if adjusted properly, doesn't matter if the bike slams down or not, as it will lower itself lower than the suspension sag. It's also fully adjustable for height, so it'll work for a motard, and it'll work for the same bike if you put the knobs back on.

MSR HP Pro Lift Stand - BikeBandit.com

[xxaarraa]

Or run by marketers that know if you slap "special edition" on something, people will pay many $000's and take it to bike night, even if the performance is below what you could do with the base model and aftermarket upgrades.

Not sure if you are implying that Italian special editions are also sticker jobs? They are most definitely not. Titanium con rods, termis from factory, full carbon bodywork, ohlins, monoblocs with stainless lines, these are a given for most "R" bikes. The Pani R was the first real let down in the special edition lineage, and even that had titanium con rods. To make a special edition and give it rubber lines and fake carbon stickers is inexcusable. It just means Honda thinks all their customers are stupid and dumb and don't know any better.

Don't forget that most street bikes will never see the track, or be ridden by anyone who thinks performance is anything more than straight-line acceleration and plush suspension.

Spoken like the accountants that run Honda / Big 4. In marketing, there is the concept called "target / halo" segment. You design and put a product out there that you know only a small fraction of your buyers will ever truly use and understand. But it has a halo effect on your entire portfolio. Said another way, The M3s and M5s contribute more to sales of BMW 328i's than anything else. The AMGs sell more base c-class cars than anything else. And so on. The halo products also hand down the technology and advancements down the line, over the course of time. If you don't have a halo product, you stagnate.

[xxaarraa]

I have an MSR HP stand that's been solid. Have been using it for 5 years, and no unusual wear and tear issues, and the bikes are very stable on it. It's super easy to lift the bike with (have even used it to lift my 400+ lb 450R mx quad) and if adjusted properly, doesn't matter if the bike slams down or not, as it will lower itself lower than the suspension sag. It's also fully adjustable for height, so it'll work for a motard, and it'll work for the same bike if you put the knobs back on.

MSR HP Pro Lift Stand - BikeBandit.com

OK, thanks for bringing this thread back on track I will look into the MSR.

[typeone]

that is a thing of beauty typeone! I know you don't want to hear it for it probably makes you regret letting it go even more

Tell me about those rims man - what model (or what bike are they off of, in the used market) and how much? I do not like the spoked wheel concept at all. Would much rather have "regular" alloy wheels that don't need tubes and can be reliably balanced.

it sure was. looked and sounded the part. i swear i had goosebumps every time i pushed the starter. power and weight were perfect for back roads...

Marchesini makes wheels specific for the SXV so no need to mess with spacers, etc. Motostrano, among others, sell them. Marchesini Supermoto Wheels - Motostrano.com

mine were 17x3.5 F, 17x5.4 R

[xxaarraa]

Where the SXV's power advantage is of any use (BIIIG tracks) motards don't tend to bother playing 'cause it's too boring.... The most I remember one being talked about was when one was racing PTwins for a short while.

Are you speaking strictly from a north east / Loudon perspective, or in general? I understand Loudon is a track where the hp advantage may not play out. But there are other tracks around the country where it does matter.

I know its only trackdays and far removed from racing, but I run the SXV at NYST and its a no contest. It blows everything else out of the water. In the hands of the same rider, I'd be willing to bet its at least 5 seconds a lap quicker than a 450 single from 2015. I know a couple of guys that race SXVs at High Plains Raceway, and high plains is a FAST and WIDE track. I know of guys who race it in Europe as well. Point I am making is... not fair to judge an entire segment by a north east / NHMS point of view.

Just to clarify, all I am saying is that Aprilia was ahead of its time, but the SXV was a half-baked product aimed entirely at pushing the envelope. But the Big 4 have strangled the market and kept it from evolving to where the SXV showed it can go.

[Kurlon]

You just said it, you're comparing from a track day perspective.

The world changes when a green flag flies. Put money on the line and things get even weirder. I thought at one time I was hot shit on my beat-em all Ducati ST3 at track days... then I got roasted by a 'seasoned citizen' on a wee little Monster 800...

That said, I think Loudon is a great place to judge the SXV, it's a best case scenario for it: There is an active proper supermoto contingent but it's at a track where you can top the bike out so more power does make a difference. At the same time, there are tight enough sections that any weight penalty WILL be noticed.

As far as Aprilia being 'ahead of it's time' lets remember that originally all motorcycles were do it alls with a bit of dirt bias. When the first actual supermoto (superbikers) races were held singles were not the only game in town. Aprilia is the most recent to do a dirty-ish bike with a twin, but not the first. Also remember that first and foremost the SXV was a street bike, that'll never be where the dirt bikes go as it requires too many compromises to their primary function, DIRT. That's a big chunk of why the SXV soured the market, a 40 hour piston replacement interval is a PITA for a competition machine, on a bike sold with a plate and blinkers it's batshit crazy. This is why the DRZ400 persists, it gets the market. Street legal, sane service intervals and still plays like a sumo. Suzuki could drop an RM-Z 450 with lights and a plate tomorrow and instantly obsolete the DRZ but the market wouldn't put up with the maint pain. It also didn't help that SXVs didn't really sell well, another reason mfgs don't want to repeat that mistake.

[xxaarraa]

That said, I think Loudon is a great place to judge the SXV, it's a best case scenario for it:

Are we talking about the same Loudon?!?!?!?!?! Loudon is hardly a track for any bike that makes respectable power. A 10 mph corner leading up to the main straight, short main straight, very tight gas brake gas brake sections, shitty ass tarmac all the over place, that hardly makes it a fast track for fast bikes. Loudon is enjoyable for different reasons, none of which are because it flows well and befits fast bikes.

The real test for SXVs is a place like NYST or High Plains.

Also remember that first and foremost the SXV was a street bike, that'll never be where the dirt bikes go as it requires too many compromises to their primary function, DIRT.

Really? And a KTM SMR is intended to be a dirt bike? Even among 100% road course/street oriented bikes, the SXV was way ahead of its time.

That's a big chunk of why the SXV soured the market, a 40 hour piston replacement interval is a PITA for a competition machine, on a bike sold with a plate and blinkers it's batshit crazy.

Precisely. Street use piston replacement intervals are 90 hours, but still, the SXV was always a horrible joke as a street bike. 900 mile oil changes, 90 hour piston replacements, motor dropped for valve checks, etc. is all entirely half baked. No wonder it didn't sell well. A bike that needs a qualified pit crew was sold to the public with very little warning.

Suzuki could drop an RM-Z 450 with lights and a plate tomorrow and instantly obsolete the DRZ but the market wouldn't put up with the maint pain.

To borrow Steve Jobs's famous line, the market doesn't know what's possible till the market sees what's possible. The market doesn't know shit. 5 years ago, 200 hp in a street bike wasn't possible. The Pani broke that barrier and now we see Yamaha and Kawi catching up. 10 years ago, traction and wheelie control in a street bike weren't possible. The Italians broke that barrier and now we see Yamaha catching up. Simple point is this: to judge a product or a segment and its evolution by the market is not very useful. The "market" always reacts.

Look, I ride around in an 8 year old bike that's not made anymore. Every day it comes home in one piece is a day to cherish. I swear no allegiances to Aprilia, the SXV is only my second. But the larger point I am trying to make is that I have seen parallels in other areas that leads me to surmise that the whole motard class has stagnated for 10 years because of the bean counters at the big Japanese brands. The same knuckle heads that put rubber lines and fake carbon stickers in their flagship superbikes. Is all.

[number9]

I would really like to try your SXV one day mate..

[xxaarraa]

I would really like to try your SXV one day mate..

Mines a pretty ordinary example, all stock. What you want to try is like the one that typeone posted.

[Kurlon]

Are we talking about the same Loudon?!?!?!?!?! Loudon is hardly a track for any bike that makes respectable power. A 10 mph corner leading up to the main straight, short main straight, very tight gas brake gas brake sections, shitty ass tarmac all the over place, that hardly makes it a fast track for fast bikes. Loudon is enjoyable for different reasons, none of which are because it flows well and befits fast bikes.

At NHMS a 450 is geared to top out, they're both out of HP and out of gearing to go any faster. An SXV should be able to out motor them as a result. Sure, we could use Qatar as our test basis but who'd bring a 450 there in the first place? You know what the ultimate track is though? The moon. That fricking moon buggy has all of the big 4's finest beat still to this day up there.

Really? And a KTM SMR is intended to be a dirt bike? Even among 100% road course/street oriented bikes, the SXV was way ahead of its time.

The SMR knew exactly what it was and was sold as such. It was a supermoto race bike. It didn't come tarted up with turn signals and a horn, there were no pretenses about it being an easy to live with machine. It was built for one purpose, marketed for the same and did it well.

To borrow Steve Jobs's famous line, the market doesn't know what's possible till the market sees what's possible. The market doesn't know shit. 5 years ago, 200 hp in a street bike wasn't possible. The Pani broke that barrier and now we see Yamaha and Kawi catching up. 10 years ago, traction and wheelie control in a street bike weren't possible. The Italians broke that barrier and now we see Yamaha catching up. Simple point is this: to judge a product or a segment and its evolution by the market is not very useful. The "market" always reacts.

Bad comparisons, all of those bikes actually brought something new to the table. The SXV was just a bad case of bigger-motor-itis badly executed.

Look, I ride around in an 8 year old bike that's not made anymore. Every day it comes home in one piece is a day to cherish. I swear no allegiances to Aprilia, the SXV is only my second. But the larger point I am trying to make is that I have seen parallels in other areas that leads me to surmise that the whole motard class has stagnated for 10 years because of the bean counters at the big Japanese brands. Is all.

The motard class is still evolving, just not as visibly in the US. The europeans are refining the product more and more. They are playing around with TC, etc but in some ways that detracts from the character of the genre so I dunno as it'll ever get adopted as mainstream like it has for road bikes. What's more going on is refining the geometry and design of the bike so it's not just a motocrosser with different wheels and clamps but it's taking time as the track layouts also keep evolving at the same time, hard to hit a moving target, eh?

And before you wax poetic about keeping old, odd machines alive, have you looked in my garage or my past builds?

[MattR302]

Mine is not modified in any way. It works.

What modification are you eluding to? I'm not following.

I did just find this video, which is a helpful idea. I had the chain mounted to the bottom the way it comes. Tore it off the first time I got the chain pinched under the stand. Now I just have the pin loose. Miracle I haven't lost it yet.

If you do these mods, you can step on it and it will stay in the raised position without the pin. I always use the pin anyways, but it holds it raised so you can insert the pin without trying to do it with your weight still on the pedal. Rather than bending the pedal, I just ground about 1/4"-1/2" off the end of it.

[Ductard]

A 10 mph corner leading up to the main straight,

If you're doing 10mph in T12...let me show you how to drop 3 seconds a lap

[nhbubba]

Isn't the DR-Z400SM the only supermoto still available new to US consumers?

[Kurlon]

Isn't the DR-Z400SM the only supermoto still available new to US consumers?

It's the only option that comes on 17s out of the crate at the moment.

[R7]

I had the same bike as Clinton, we both bought them within a week of each other from Seacoast. I did a few trackdays on mine, maybe 3 or 4 at NHMS, and a 2 day event at VIR. I also had a YZ450F Supermoto at the same time and while I'll agree the sxv was slightly faster than the YZ, end of the day, the YZ was more fun to ride because it was about 40lbs lighter. My SXV was stock except for being de-restricted.

Calling a DRZ400 a supermoto is like calling a YZR50 a superbike

[xxaarraa]

Bad comparisons, all of those bikes actually brought something new to the table. The SXV was just a bad case of bigger-motor-itis badly executed.

Unfair. The SXV was more than just a big motor. By your own admission, the SXV brakes from 9 years ago are now an upgrade for 2015 motards.

The SXV was badly executed for other reasons. Like all things made in a small Italian factory by 20 odd guys eating pasta and drinking wine, it was a case of a design/concept that was WAY ahead of its time, just poorly built and then put into production. The Italian industrial design story is littered with similar examples. Ever heard of Abarth? Lancia? Alfa? Italian motorcycles are amazingly similar in story to Italian cars, and mostly consistent.

And before you wax poetic about keeping old, odd machines alive, have you looked in my garage or my past builds?

I had not, but I just did! Early 90s two strokes, early 80s CB650s, I can see you have unconventional taste. You of all people should then be able to appreciate the SXV for what it is! I'll PM you about a few of my old bikes - a 1974 Jawa Model 'B' and a 1991 Yamaha 'RX-100'

BTW, I found this action shot. I have to admit I pictured you subconsciously as one of... let's say... advanced age. You look a lot younger and decidedly wisdom-free in this photo.

That is sarcasm for folks that don't get it.