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Body position for hard braking

  1. #26
    Senior Member Viper897's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Pete,

    If you have the chance watch Eric Wood, Scott Greenwood, Rick Doucette, any of the single or two digit experts. A lot of them have there butt off the seat going into 3. Its the upper body which stays centered and then moves at the last moment. I was trying this towards the end of the season last year and it seemed to work. Just my 2 cents on it as it will not work for all.

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  2. #27
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Ductard, the throttle improvement are the RESULT of braking zone actions. These were all done on the same 125, the same day.

    The 125 has no torque, so every loss of momentum on the brakes follows you down the next straight. That is why these are the best bikes to learn on.

    All of you observations are true. I am using more gas between the linked corners to maintain rolling speed and that follows me down the straight. But we are talking about braking here, and the graphs do show big differences. The humps at the top of my line are rounder, meaning I transition from throttle to brake smoother and don't kill my momentum as soon as the others. I also get off the brakes sooner, which kills less speed and allows earlier throttle.

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  3. #28
    Lifer union's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Quote Originally Posted by Viper897 View Post
    Pete,

    If you have the chance watch Eric Wood, Scott Greenwood, Rick Doucette, any of the single or two digit experts. A lot of them have there butt off the seat going into 3. Its the upper body which stays centered and then moves at the last moment. I was trying this towards the end of the season last year and it seemed to work. Just my 2 cents on it as it will not work for all.
    Pretty much what I try to do each time. Setup early that way you're not putting any extra force into the bike at a critical traction time. As Paul said earlier it also depends on the bike. I remember trying to demonstrate it to one of my garage mates while on my motard. I setup up for 3 where I would on a 600 and felt like I was hanging out there forever. On a 600 or bigger at NHMS you really shouldn't be sitting centered on the bike at anytime. Some of the quicker guys on the smaller bikes never sit center even though they do get a bit more time down the straights.

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    James

  4. #29
    go faster cdovego's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    I was implying that hanging off early in T3 can slow most people down, not that it was slowing Christian down.
    We're saying the same thing.

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    Central Mass Powersports #123

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  5. #30
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    For people here who don't know me, that 19 is still 3 seconds slower than my former race pace on the same 125gp bike. We didn't have (affordable) gps data back then, but I would LOVE to see a comparison graph of my riding back then. No one has come close to the pace since then. I quit in 07.

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    Paul_E_D


  6. #31
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    That 19 is still 2 seconds faster than I've gone with twice the HP or what, 47 times the torque?

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  7. #32
    Lifer isaac_'s Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    racing 125s looks like fun
    I want to have fun

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  8. #33
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    a 125 gp bike is serious fun, but takes quite a few years to master. Once you can go fast on a 125, your skills are there. You can go fast on any bike with a small adjustment phase.

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    Paul_E_D


  9. #34
    Lifer lrrs313's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Paul, have you had a chance to ride one of the Moriwaki (sp?) 250 4 stroke GP bikes? Curious how they compare to the 125 GP bikes.

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  10. #35
    Lifer isaac_'s Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Where do I get one

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  11. #36
    Bizarro Zoolander Petorius's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Are these bikes physically smaller? Can tall guys play?

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  12. #37
    Just Registered rolker's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Quote Originally Posted by isaac_ View Post
    Where do I get one
    You can start here...

    USGPRU : View Forum - Classifieds

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    Roland Arsenault
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  13. #38
    Senior Member jerseygirl's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Quote Originally Posted by Petorius View Post
    Are these bikes physically smaller? Can tall guys play?
    Zack Courts is probably 6'2''+ and manhandled a 125 with Paul years ago. So yes you can totally play. I used to watch him turn the bike around by just picking it up!

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  14. #39
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    They are about 3/4 size. Tall guys can certainly play. I haven't gotten to ride a Moriwaki yet, but they are physically nearly identical. Just a little heavier. The motors seem underpowered and boring to me having ridden and raced some other 4 stroke singles. I also think you won't pay for your mistakes as severely on the 4 stroke, so it's not quite as sharp a learning tool. I guess they have come along with the motors, but I felt they should have gone with at least 350ccs.

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    Paul_E_D


  15. #40
    Lifer
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Quote Originally Posted by csmutty View Post
    I squeeze with both knees with my butt off to the right side of the seat. Then all I have to do is stick my knee out and...voila.
    This was my observation too. I didn't really get it until I was able to watch the "fast guys" at a track day from up on the hill. From that vantage I was finally able to see what I think is riders being set up going into the chute but not opening their knee until tip in; the rest of their body doesn't move, just their leg.


    I am so going to suck racing this year. I feel like I've forgotten everything. ... Except how great it felt.

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  16. #41
    Posting Freak Tas's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Quote Originally Posted by Viper897 View Post
    Pete,

    If you have the chance watch Eric Wood, Scott Greenwood, Rick Doucette, any of the single or two digit experts. A lot of them have there butt off the seat going into 3. Its the upper body which stays centered and then moves at the last moment. I was trying this towards the end of the season last year and it seemed to work. Just my 2 cents on it as it will not work for all.
    My last track day in July I was fortunate enough to be following, I think, plate holder #9 and he setups up very early into T3. So I started to do it. Definitely prepped my body position to make the turn quicker. Stressed the legs much more too but I liked it.

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  17. #42
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Rada on Jake's 125...
    Body position for hard braking-adam-jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Body position for hard braking-adam-jpg  

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  18. #43
    Bizarro Zoolander Petorius's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Quote Originally Posted by Viper897 View Post
    Its the upper body which stays centered and then moves at the last moment. I was trying this towards the end of the season last year and it seemed to work. Just my 2 cents on it as it will not work for all.
    I used this technique for the second half of the season as well, except going into 3. I move my butt off but keep the inside knee tight against the tank while braking, then extend the knee and move the upper body over as I tip in. It helped a bit with hard braking. I look crossed up on video until about half way to the apex.

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  19. #44
    Lifer
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    I know you beat my pants off. But I'm linking this anyway : 2014 LRRS Round 7 - Racing Is Life

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  20. #45
    Bizarro Zoolander Petorius's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Can you tell where that was taken?

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  21. #46
    Just Registered rolker's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Quote Originally Posted by Petorius View Post
    Can you tell where that was taken?
    NHMS?

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    Roland Arsenault
    LRRS and USCRA #763
    2012, 2013 and 2015 Big Fish Small Pond Champion
    "The 4 board is an upshift marker, not a brake marker"

  22. #47
    Lifer jasnmar's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    After the exit of 12, onto the straight I would guess.

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  23. #48
    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    I agree. the trail braking zone is very short in T3. It ends at the rumblestrip IMO. off the brakes and on the gas by the corner of the pavement patch.
    Bingo


    However, in a racing environment I often find myself braking a little bit deeper than that. When I do, I'll brake hard all the way to the corner of the patch, then immediately get back on the gas before the yellow line.

    This is probably a slightly more defensive approach to T3... likely the result of being passed so many times in the T3 braking zone by Ricky, Scotty, Jesse, etc It slows me down a little more than I like mid-corner (at/around the NASCAR transition), but it helps maximize entry speed up and allows me to start my braking just a little bit later.

    At least, that's my theory.

    Of course it also has a lot to do with the bike/rider combo and what their strengths/weaknesses are.

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 03-19-15 at 03:04 PM.
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  24. #49
    Bizarro Zoolander Petorius's Avatar
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Quote Originally Posted by jasnmar View Post
    After the exit of 12, onto the straight I would guess.
    I think you are right. I'm not a fan of hanging off for the whole straight, my hips get really tight after a lot of lapping and I like to rest them in the most neutral position possible going down the straight. Not to mention superior aerodynamics vs Colin.

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  25. #50
    Lifer
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    Re: Body position for hard braking

    Quote Originally Posted by Petorius View Post
    Not to mention superior aerodynamics vs Colin.
    Wow. Just wow.

    That's exit of 12. Martin is behind the fence way, way back up the NASCAR T4 bank. From there you get a straight shot down the center of the track.

    If you are intentionally re-centering on the bike, so beit. I thought maybe you were and weren't entirely aware of it. I've found myself doing things out of pure habit without realizing it. Sometimes that includes not setting up for a turn as early as I intend to. Or sitting in the middle of the seat the whole way down the front straight. If its intentional, carry on.

    I'm sold on conserving energy and keeping a cheek off the whole way down the front. What I need to focus on is keeping my body straight and not crossing up.

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