Brake upgrade options for 2006 SV650S?

[davemon]

I've been getting through PMS by dreaming about track days and riding in general. As part of this I've spent a fair bit of time dreaming about the best of the crop for a new track bike as I would very much like a track bike with selectable ABS and traction control on the electronics side and a slipper clutch. I would use these electronic features as learning tools and found them really interesting on my Multistrada S's single day at NHMS in 2012. I tried hard and was barely able to activate the traction control even in sport setting (chicken is what I am) and never activated the ABS but have to admit I didn't try for that and am also a chicken shit on the brakes and only slide/wiggle the rear some with downshifts.

So, in order to save myself cash I spent some time thinking about my current track bike. Just had suspension refreshed and aligned by Peter Kates last summer and I love the bike like never before. It's also been fanatically maintained by me and I know everything is good to go with no worries. So why do I want a new track bike? Besides new shiny toy "want want want" I think it's my frustration with the brakes. I loathe having to bleed the brakes to get through a day and I also really hate how soft the lever gets and how hard it is to use. Having tried other bikes on track (R1, 675R, GSXR600, Multistrada S) I know how nice good or ever great brakes are and I want them. I don't need insane stoppers like those on my 2011 Multi S but I do want some that I can use 1 or 2 fingers on that I just don't need to touch during a 2 day event.

My setup now is stock rotors, Motul RBF600 or ATE Super Blue fluid, stainless lines, and have run Carbone Lorraine race pads and EBC Sintered Double-H for pads. I've flushed them several times as well as bled them and used the zip tie trick. I start with a nice firm level and good bite but by the end of the first session it's only so so. If I don't ride around the paddock for a bit after a session before I park the bike the lever will be really spongy and need one pump for the first half a lap and i never as good as first session after a bleed. If I keep going or do instruction and come right in and park the bike I usually have to bleed the brakes 1 or 2 times during a day. I'm a medium pace rider in the advanced group with Tony's days most times.

Looking for options that don't require suspension work preferably as it's all so nice right now and I spent considerable cash on refresh an setup last year. Did some reading online and see a lot of BS and since I don't know much I'm worried about the quality of info.

Dave

[Rada]

Sounds like you could use a rebuild on the MC.
Until I smashed it off in a crash my stock MC bled out perfectly and had great feel. I can't say that for the Nissin radial that I put on it. I like to one finger brake and you should not have any trouble getting the stock MC to do that for you. Your set-up is just like what I had. Stock MC, RBF and CL pads with SS lines. It should work if all parts are in good order.

[soofle616]

Definitely sounds like a bad MC or bad seals on the calipers letting in air or moisture. There is no reason you should be bleeding the brakes repeatedly (or at all) between sessions. Hell even my 919, a giant bloated pig with tiny little baby rotors and shit calipers with street pads gets me through a two day event without ever needing to be bled. Sure i get a little fade as I pick up the pace but it's got less than SV spec brakes and weighs 450+ lbs plus my (at the time) 300lb ass riding it.

[davemon]

Interesting. Maybe it was a manufacturing defect as this bike has been acting the same for 4 years now (since it's first track day) when it had 1500 miles on it. It can be ridden all day and hard on the street with never a change in the lever in that if it starts freshly bleed with new pads the lever is rock hard all day. Given that, do you think I need new seals in calipers or new MC? I've cared for a lot of brake systems when car racing but wouldn't say I know a lot about brakes.

[soofle616]

track riding and hard street riding are very different conditions. Your brakes are unlikely to see the kind of use they get on the track when on the street even if you are riding aggressively. Hard to say for sure where the problem is. The best way to troubleshoot without just throwing money at it is to see about borrowing someone else's m/c and swapping that on for a session or day at the track. If you have no problems, rebuild your mc. If you still have problems I'd be looking at the calipers.

[loudog]

Yeah, new seals in the calipers and a master rebuild and I bet you'd be good to go. If still not up to liking, step up to acassatto or brembo.

[PainfullySlow]

My personal preference if a true brembo 19RCS isnt in the budget, look for an 06+ R6 master cylinder. If you are running GSXR forks (dunno if your suspension work was on stock or upgraded forks) you can also run the calipers from the same R6/R1 with some spacers. Braided lines, EBC EPFA/GPFA pads and RBF600 should get you little to no fade.

[davemon]

Thanks folks, these tips are helpful. I'm running the original SV650S brake parts except pads and braided lines. I did upgrade the internals for my stock forks to springs set for my riding, fancier oils, and cartridge emulators.

On the brake lever travel. If I bleed them fresh and get a nice firm lever pull and then go ride two sessions, get a soft lever, and then just park the bike; afterward when I bleed them the first couple pulls comes out discolored on both calipers. The color is still the same but it looks less clear... more milky looking. This happens with both ATE Super Blue and Motul RBF600.

Dave

[The Snowman]

My personal preference if a true brembo 19RCS isnt in the budget, look for an 06+ R6 master cylinder. If you are running GSXR forks (dunno if your suspension work was on stock or upgraded forks) you can also run the calipers from the same R6/R1 with some spacers. Braided lines, EBC EPFA/GPFA pads and RBF600 should get you little to no fade.

Lou(dog) and I had the opposite experience with the R6 Brembo MC. The lever never got really stiff, just squishy. (hey, we're talking about MCs here, not my aging low-t)

I also had an opposite experience as Rada did with the Nissin radial MC. Actually, Adam used my spare when he cracked his stock MC off in a race.

[Kurlon]

The Daytona badged Nissin radial I had on my GS had beautiful feel. Granted it was a smaller bore than the typical OEM sourced units but it was only working half the number of pistons too.

[csmutty]

I have a spare complete set of 07 R6 brakes...

[Kurlon]

I believe you'd need adapter brackets for the calipers.

[Dip Dungles]

I believe you'd need adapter brackets for the calipers.

That you do. Spacers go for about $30 new. Can't remember the company name off the top of my head.

[Pigman]

That you do. Spacers go for about $30 new. Can't remember the company name off the top of my head.

Here you go.......... http://www.twfracing.com/zparts.html


Available for 310mm and 320mm rotors

For Orders E-Mail: Zoran@TWFRacing.com

[Dip Dungles]

Here you go.......... http://www.twfracing.com/zparts.html

That would be it. $35 new.

[Pigman]

BOOM.............................goes the board

[The Snowman]

SV Racing Parts sells adapters to adapt 4 piston Nissin or Tokiko non-radial calipers from older GSXR or CBR bikes.

[davemon]

Thanks all. Tons to think about here and lots of great links.

Interesting too the diametric opposite experiences with various upgrade parts. I had no idea that my stock brakes should be completely fine and assumed I was just reaching the limits of brakes built for a pedestrian bike like the SV. Brakes on all the other bikes I've owned have been far more than I need in any situation I can throw at them (heck, the Multi S brakes didn't change one tiny bit on track with street pads even when the multi-sport tires were getting iffy from sort of melting).

Thanks all!

Dave

[The Snowman]

One of the fastest lightweight guys in the region, Pete (OreoGaborio) uses stock calipers on his Supersport legal 06 SV650.

His upgrades are SS lines and an Accossato radial MC. The MC is overkill. I have one and used them with stock calipers last season, so I know that as well.

I only changed brakes for this season, because I did the GSX-R front end swap to get better suspension.

[davemon]

Oh yeah, Pete. I'm considerably quicker than Pete but not when we are riding SV's on track. On a good day I think I can run him down if he take out a pit bike... not sure. I also have an email out to Pete as he is handy mechanically too and I'm wondering what he thinks might be going on. I wish I had time to warn him not to go deep into any corner and to try out my bike last year.

Thanks again to all for info! Stuff like this is hard to figure out without folks who really use their bikes on track and have seen this and that happen along the way.

Dave

[soofle616]

On the brake lever travel. If I bleed them fresh and get a nice firm lever pull and then go ride two sessions, get a soft lever, and then just park the bike; afterward when I bleed them the first couple pulls comes out discolored on both calipers. The color is still the same but it looks less clear... more milky looking. This happens with both ATE Super Blue and Motul RBF600.

Dave

You definitely have an issue with air/moisture/etc. getting in there. Rebuild the calipers with all new seals. Inspect the pots while you have them out and the bores to make sure there's no scoring or other damage that could be allowing stuff to get by the seals. Fill with fresh fluid from a sealed container (if you're flushing or bleeding with stuff from an open can it could already be contaminated depending on how long it's been sitting) and bleed till you have a nice firm lever. I bet that makes a huge difference. If you still have issues at that point, rebuild the m/c and flush again.