Does one need to crash while at the track to become a better rider?

[Lxpony]

This is a topic I have been thinking about lately. I take my own personal experience when considering if crashing is part of improving one's skill at trackday riding. First I want to clarify what my expectations are when I do a track day- I don’t go with the hope of getting my racing license or being the fastest in my group- I just want to have fun and push my bike to limits not safe/legal on the street. My bike does dual duty- street and track so that might also have something to do with this mindset. I have done 18 days over the past 2 years- 60% NHMS and 40% NJMP. I always make sure my suspension, brake pads, tire life and tire pressure are dialed in which goes a long way in preventing a tip-over. Does crashing help you learn your limits more then say someone who rides to 90-95% of the bike's traction limits? I try to learn from people's mistakes and apply those lessons when at the track (and street). So far that has done me well with respects to keeping the bike on two wheels. I have ridden off the track both in NH and NJ though and have had plenty of PUCKER moments while at both tracks. I like to think I am getting better at honing my skills after each track experience but am wondering if I am pushing myself enough to continue that learning. I know it has made me a safer rider on the street though because I understand the limits of traction and the benefit of body position/bar input when leaned over.

What are other's thoughts?

[The Snowman]

Not really. Crashing often sets one back a little, depending on the crash. It can often make someone apprehensive about hammering it where the crash occurred.

However, certain crashes, where you KNOW what you did wrong, aid in your never doing the same mistake again.

[CBR929RE]

I absolutely believe crashing is unnecessary to improve ones skills. If you do go down then examine what happened and try to learn from it but you can learn more keeping it upright.

[Lxpony]

However, certain crashes, where you KNOW what you did wrong, aid in your never doing the same mistake again.

Is that why I think of you every time I look at the side of my suit that you scuffed when you crashed while wearing it a few years back??

[Jim]

it really depends on the rider.

i know people that tip-toe around the track on TD's because they're afraid to wreck their pretty paintjob.

others i know tend to back off after a crash. most common i've seen is T3. i know a few riders that break earlier than before after hitting the tire wall.

me personally, i wasn't afraid of the T5 hill after my cartwheeling at teh end of last season. i did however learn from my experience and adjust my body position before hitting the throttle going down the hill.

[kb1]

I will defer to Chuck, because well he's the Snowman and he toasted me Monday.

[The Snowman]

Is that why I think of you every time I look at the side of my suit that you scuffed when you crashed while wearing it a few years back??

I will defer to Chuck, because well he's the Snowman and he toasted me Monday.

[butcher bergs]

Everyone learns in their own way. The reality is, no one "needs" to crash in order to learn something however if one never pushes their limits then how does one learn where the limits are?

That question is not to suggest it is necessary to crash but how does a rider know where the true limits of their machine or themselves are if they never get there?

The answer, IMO, is to slowly progress and make incremental changes along the way which will lend to the eventual approach of rider and/ or machine limitations.

Poor body position, incorrect control inputs and a host of other bad habits will show a rider the limits much quicker than a rider who is working to make calculated approaches to the same limits.

Crashing is completely unnecessary however there are riders that learn very quickly after a crash and there are riders that are set back. Again, everyone learns in their own way.

[maxim_X]

I have very limited track experience. But, I have told myself with a lot of what I do, you can never be at the limit unless you go over the edge. That being said, I've found that crashing without knowing why won't help you become any better. I'm experiencing that feeling right now.

[tsorfas]

i think crashing shows you where the limit really is.
or you learn what you did wrong.
sometimes it wakes you up and brings you back to reality.
every crash is different though, its a case by case scenario

[kb1]

While I continue to defer to Chuck I will add my rant...sorry for the long post.

I am a mid-pack blue group rider, I average high 20's (28-29's) and have ridden 5 different bikes on the track (Z1k, R6, R1, GSXR600, SV650). I have never crashed in three years and over two dozen days of track riding. I definitely am not an expert, but this is my opinion on the subject.

I don't think you need to crash to find your limits, or the limits of your bike. I would hope nobody is going out onto the track thinking "I'm going to ride as hard as possible until I crash." That would be dangerous to you and everybody else on the track.

The approach I take, that I have picked up from watching and listening to racers and track dayers I respect (you know who you are..) is not to think about the crash, but be prepared that a mistake could cause it. I started as a slow timid red group rider, and now I'm a fairly confident mid-pack blue group rider. I have always had the understanding that as I progress in speed/times, the room for error gets much much smaller, and the decisions/adjustments need to be made increasingly quicker and smoother. Every session I am out on track I'm trying to push my brake markers back a little bit, even if it's only a fraction of a second later. I try to get on the gas just a little bit earlier each time, and I try to adjust my lines from watching those who are faster than me that I respect.

However I do that with respect for the speeds I'm running, and the limitations of the bike. For example Monday I found coming out of the bowl full throttle under the tree house I would get a nasty head shake due to the lack of a damper on my new SV. While I could ride through the shake, I opted to back it off a couple "clicks" of the throttle through that area because I didn't feel the benefit of being fully pinned right there outweighed the chance of a nasty tank slapper at 100mph in a dangerous part of the track. To make up for being lighter on the gas I hardly braked at all through 9 or 10. To me, pushing the bike full throttle right there and tank slapping myself to next week at 100mph is not a good way to "improve" my track riding by finding the "limitations." The bike showed me it's limitations or my own body position mistake by twitching in that area. I didn't need it to spit me off to show that. I improved my riding ability by increasing my corner speed in 9 or 10 to make up for the loss under the tree-house.

Another example, as I progress in my speeds through corners I don't look to get my knee down, when it happens it happens. If it doesn't I'm not concerned. I also don't think low siding or high siding mid corner is a good way to find out the traction limitations of a tire. When I was riding my R1 I would again "click" through the throttle until I felt it squirm a little and then hold there. I wouldn't wack the throttle open to see how hard I could go before the bike spit me off.

Ok enough ranting for now...

[OreoGaborio]

Can you squeeze some knowledge/experience out of a crash? Learn from your mistakes so you don't repeat them? Absolutely... but IMO, crashing contributes very little to making someone a better rider. The only thing crashing does is let you know you completely fukked up.

[Jim]

i practice crashing on the street, so i'm better at it on the track

[BluGixxer]

Crashing is good for the mind
Bad for the body
Scar tissue eventual hurts, and makes you aprehensive.
why do you think older people are slower,
Because they have learned thruogh the years that crashing is bad !

[Rada]

As someone who has not crashed but made pretty good gains. I don't believe finding your limit through crashing to be overly productive. I much prefer to gently and progressively find the point of slip. Then work on technique until I can surpass that point. Then start the process over by slowly increasing the pace until I find the slip point again and then polish that riding flaw.

This has worked well for me. By making the slow transition to the slip point, the first "Slip" was not scary. I was able to detect it coming on and deal with it. I have pushed my mostly stock SV from 29s this spring to 21s and 22s this fall using this method and staying off the deck.

I still have room for lots of improvement and next spring can't come soon enough for me to get back to work on my weak spots.

That and Emma would beat me if I crashed Lucy.

[PainfullySlow]

Can you squeeze some knowledge/experience out of a crash? Learn from your mistakes so you don't repeat them? Absolutely... but IMO, crashing contributes very little to making someone a better rider. The only thing crashing does is let you know you completely fukked up.

^ this.

[RyanNicholson]

Can you squeeze some knowledge/experience out of a crash? Learn from your mistakes so you don't repeat them? Absolutely... but IMO, crashing contributes very little to making someone a better rider. The only thing crashing does is let you know you completely fukked up.

As someone who had a bit of a crashing habit for a while, I 100% agree with Pete. Do you need to crash a car to be a better driver?

The only thing I learned from crashing was once you hit 16's, stock suspension doesn't really cut it anymore. Well that, and cement walls apparently don't move.

You don't need to crash, it just kinda happens sometimes.

[ctbandit]

Id say hell no. I was making great progress before myy crash, and had I not had a mental fart i feel like id be continuing that progress without crashing. That said, I did have to make a concious decision to push it a bit harder before I started gaining speed. I was being overlyy cautious and once I realized it and pushed a bit harder it really got me moving better.

[Manik]

As far as I can tell...the rider always maxxes out before the bike does. Crashing will never tell you where your bikes limit is...because as long as your riding it... you won't reach the bikes limits. There's nothing wrong with always riding at 95% because as you progress...so does your 95% performance... you will become a better rider faster if you work consistantly than if you ride all over the place trying to fail. There's always plenty to work on at even 80%...so 100% just isn't necessary for the learning curve.
Most crashes seem to happen when your 100% is needed to beat the rider ahead of you.. that's when mistakes happen.
Personally, I feel like iv learned more from a ride at my pace working on position and such than I do getting myself out of hairy situations I forced trying to follow or beat a better rider. Only difference between an oh shit moment and a crash...is what your sitting on when the thought reaches your mind. Learn from both.

[TTD]

There's nothing wrong with always riding at 95% because as you progress...so does your 95% performance... you will become a better rider faster if you work consistantly than if you ride all over the place trying to fail. There's always plenty to work on at even 80%...so 100% just isn't necessary for the learning curve.

I think the above statement sums my thoughts on trackdays and practice.

Now... if you are racing and the "prize" is worth it to you, then riding at 100%is sometimes necessary... and when you're at 100% it's very easy to hit 101% and fall down.

While many racers might feel they are riding at 100% all the time in every race, it's rarely true. During most races, most of us say, "I could have braked later/got on the gas harder/etc"

I think the difference between most of us and the "champions" is that they have figured out how to be very close to 100% level for the greatest period of each race.

[maxim_X]

I am surprised and impressed with how long some of you have been to the track and managed to stay up right. I could really use to learn a thing or two from you.

[CBR929RE]

I am surprised and impressed with how long some of you have been to the track and managed to stay up right. I could really use to learn a thing or two from you.

a friend of mine went 12 years before going down on the track (no racing) and I think another 8 years of street riding before that without going down. that was the longest I've ever heard.

[maxim_X]

I've got less than a track day and a half and I've smashed 3 times. I'm disgusted.

[OreoGaborio]

I've got less than a track day and a half and I've smashed 3 times. I'm disgusted.

Concentrate on working on smoothness, precision and control. That typically yields the best results.

In the 75-100 or so track days I've done over the years, I've had just two track day crashes.

[Lxpony]

I am surprised and impressed with how long some of you have been to the track and managed to stay up right. I could really use to learn a thing or two from you.

My bike has been damaged more being transported back and forth from the track then actually riding it on the track.