Derek's awesome and never ending thread

[DerekSBelanger]

If you ever want to say anything to or about Derek - this is the place to do it! I'm going to ask a lot of questions about riding here...and with help produce great answers too!

To get this thread started....

...some proof for those of you who never believe me when I tell you how insanely fast I am.

[FireboltEric_MA]

My kids were there Tuesday and were teasing me....A girl just passed you Dad...On a PINK Bike....

Then I showed them it was no girl...(Thank God)

[The Crashing Tomato]

Friggn

[DerekSBelanger]

Topic: COUNTERBALANCE, BODY POSITION and LEAN ANGLE

OK! At the August 4th track day Gram (a TTD instructor and massively credible fellow) said to me “You can’t go any faster or you’re going to go off the edge of the tire. You’ve got too much lean angle.” Well…that’s a really big problem because

a) I want to go faster
b) I don’t want to go off the edge of the tire

*GRAM: feel free to correct me if I misquote or misunderstood anything you said* He recommended that I adopt a more upright body position on the bike with the idea that an elevated head and torso will produce more leverage toward counterbalancing the bike (the main reason we hang off in the first place, if I’m not mistaken) and thereby reduce lean angle. If you’ve watched any DSB this year, Martin Cardenas is using this style and making the rest of the DSB paddock look average (with the exception of the Buell) so you’re brave if you want to claim it can’t work. One more important thing I want to mention before moving on is that whatever counterbalance force you produce should be transmitted to the bike through your legs and feet, right? Else you’d have to be putting weight on the bars. Am I right?

So, let’s take another direction for a moment. What is one thing you can do to tighten a line mid corner? (Pete did a great job discussing this with us in the Yellow group classroom) Many people believe that putting pressure against the tank with your outside leg will help adjust the lean/turn of the bike.

At the moment I feel these two statements are conflicting. One says that adding counterbalance force decreases lean angle and the other says that adding counterbalance force increases lean angle.

Can you think of any professional riders who are doing the opposite of elevated head and torso and making it work?

Who’s got something to say on the topic!?

[Paul_E_D]

I don't understand a word you just said, and I've been doing this a while... with some success. You're going to have to define your terms.

counterbalancing to me means hanging off the OUTSIDE of the bike in a turn. THe way an MX rider would do it. It produces more lean angle, but gives you better balance and bike control. It's almost never used in roadracing. Doug Henry being one exception.

Upright, I really don't know what you mean here either. Like Colin Edwards style? vs. sayHopkins, or Spies?

[DerekSBelanger]

Paul,

I don’t doubt for a second I've got terms and or ideas mixed up.

Yes, upright like Edwards. I used Cardenas as an example; because it’s easy for me to see that he is doing what Gram suggest I try.

As for Spies or Hopkins, you’re the expert. You tell me what they are doing differently from Edwards and Cardenas. I really want to know!

When I say "counterbalance" I really mean using your body to produce force that will oppose (or balance) a force created by the bike. To me, lean angle and hanging off both counterbalance the bike’s tendency to want to flop over toward the outside of the turn.

Counterbalance seems to be a good term because the forces must be equal or the bike will flop to the inside or outside of the turn if they are not.

What’s the correct or common term for what I’m describing?

[Manny]

Is that laptime 2 minutes 50 seconds?

Is that accurate?

[DerekSBelanger]

Is that laptime 2 minutes 50 seconds?

Yes.

Is that accurate?

No, its not accurate. Thats why its funny! Everylap seems to have a problem with my helmet (HJC AC-12).

[Paul_E_D]

The term you want to use is simply hanging off.

Counterbalance is when you lean one way and the bike leans the other. that's the counter part.

I still don't know what you're getting at. Those 2 styles don't make an incredible difference in my mind. Now, some people hang their butt out further than their head. We call that being crossed up. Larry Pegram would be an example, or even Mick Doohan. All those guys are obviously fast, so I don't think we can say one style is better than others, but different people are comfortable with different styles. It's worth trying them out to see if you can gain confidence with a different body position.

Using up lean angle has as much to do with your steering inputs as it does with body position. Early and very quick steering gets you turned with less average lean than slow turn in where you have to lean down further after the apex.

[OreoGaborio]

I brought up pressing on the outside of the tank because most people in yellow aren't leaning the bike all the way to the edge of the tire.

It seems to me that Graham's suggestion of sitting "up" more mid-corner would put your upper body closer to the inside of the turn instead of pressed against the side of the tank, where hanging off becomes more efficient than the way you used to hang off, which was kinda rotating around the tank & pressing against the side of it. That way didn't change the center of gravity all that much.

[DerekSBelanger]

I still don't know what you're getting at. Those 2 styles don't make an incredible difference in my mind.

Awesome!...but why not? They sure look different.

Using up lean angle has as much to do with your steering inputs as it does with body position. Early and very quick steering gets you turned with less average lean than slow turn in where you have to lean down further after the apex.

Watching some video of my laps that's what I was starting to think. It looks like I turn a lot (too much) near the apex and not enough early in the turn.

At first I thought this was a problem I was only having only in T3, but after looking at it more I think its a more universal issue.

Still, this topic is about body position vs lean angle. I'm sure you've got information about the relationship of these two things. How would you explain it?

[OreoGaborio]

Still, this topic is about body position vs lean angle.

more like center of gravity & personal preference.

Body position is used to adjust the center of gravity lower & towards the inside of the turn.... you want to use your body to minimize the lean angle of the bike & put it more on the meat of the tire.

[Manny]

Why dont you post some pics or video so the rest of us know what the frigg we are talking about here.

[OreoGaborio]

show up to a TTD once in a while & maybe you wouldn't need pics or vid!!!

[Manny]

show up to a TTD once in a while & maybe you wouldn't need pics or vid!!!

Fuck man.....Ive been to 4 events this year!

Where were you at NJ in June?????

[OreoGaborio]

workin!

[Paul_E_D]

Awesome!...but why not? They sure look different.



Watching some video of my laps that's what I was starting to think. It looks like I turn a lot (too much) near the apex and not enough early in the turn.

At first I thought this was a problem I was only having only in T3, but after looking at it more I think its a more universal issue.

Still, this topic is about body position vs lean angle. I'm sure you've got information about the relationship of these two things. How would you explain it?

Why go back to body position when we (maybe)discovered the cause of your issue elsewhere?

Hanging off is getting one job done, and that's getting the bike more upright. The subtleties of how you hang off can help you stay in touch with the feedback being offered by the bike. Different bikes offer different feel, and perhaps require different positions from the rider.

For me the most important thing is not to lose front end feel. On a 600 I can hang pretty dang far off and not lose the feel. On a GP bike where everything is more precise, I couldn't hang way out with my upper body and still carry high corner speeds. I just couldn't react fast enough with my arms all outstretched on that sensitive front end.

My point is that hanging off isn't what makes a rider fast or not.

[OreoGaborio]

well said, Paul.

[RyanNicholson]

Derek I think what you're describing as differences between Edwards/Cardenas vs. Hopkins all boil down to their specific riding style. Even though they look different all the same principals are still there. It isn't that one works better than the other, they'll all work just fine. Most instructors will try and get you to put your head right about where your mirror would be and look into the turn with a cheek off the seat and your back aligned with the bike. This is just a very general goal to get riders learning body position. Many have a tendency to keep their head more centered on the bike and let their butt hang off, ending up "crossed up'. Of course you'll see a few pros doing this, but its just their style... it works for them but it isn't the general way things are taught when you're trying to learn.

Comparing Mlandri and Edwards... you can see the slight difference in body position.






I couldn't find a photo of Hopkins in the same corner/angle but he's known for having an extremely aggressive style. (getting his head down and off the bike more).



Even though all these riders have different styles the same principals apply. I agree with Paul, even though some people's styles look very different when it boils down to it they don't make much of a difference. They all get the job done.

I'm not sure if that helps.

[wiggeywackyo]

This is quite interesting as I was just digging around on the CSS site and came across a good thread on this stuff and found this diagram.

[OreoGaborio]

ah, there it is.....

I tend to sit crouched and below.

[DerekSBelanger]

I agree with Paul, even though some people's styles look very different when it boils down to it they don't make much of a difference. They all get the job done.

I'm not sure if that helps.

Thanks, all of you! That does help. I have a long arm across the tank like hopkins. Here's a pic.



Now. One little problem left. You guys are all awesome, and so is Gram, but you dont seem to agree with him? Maybe I need to get some video of my lines up here and we can see if thats where the problem really is.

Paging Mr Kurtz!

[Paul_E_D]

Graham's point is valid. If you try the more upright position you may be able to reduce your lean angle.

I don't believe that you can roll off the edge of a tire. IMO The tire flexes into the ground no matter what you lean angle. It's controling the bike at those high lean angles that gets tough.

[OreoGaborio]

we can't agree with him cuz we didn't see what he saw

I don't think he's saying lift your chest up away from the ground, he's saying move your chest "up" just a little towards the inside of the corner. It's like you're tryin to drag elbow

[DerekSBelanger]

Hehe, I dont even drag my knee! I'm just doing what feels comfortable - and thats not always the right thing to do!

There is a size problem too, if I move up...my arms arnt long enough to let me stay that far inside the bike. I'll have to move toward the center.