Derek's awesome and never ending thread

[DerekSBelanger]

we can't agree with him cuz we didn't see what he saw

Too true! I'll see what I can do about that...

[OreoGaborio]

it's just a subtle change.... and your outside arm is still bent.

Frankly, I think your form looks 10 times better than it did in seasons past where you were trying to hump the side of your bike

[RyanNicholson]

Yea we didn't see what he did.... from the pic I don't see how you could really have "too much" lean angle with your body position. Looks pretty good to me. But again, thats an opinion based on one shot from one corner from one angle.

[butcher bergs]

Total Control by Lee Parks

Read it.

[Paul_E_D]

This is quite interesting as I was just digging around on the CSS site and came across a good thread on this stuff and found this diagram.

In the last two pictures, who do you think is more in touch with the front end of the bike? Looking at the arms, who is holding the bars tighter, and who has a better position feel the front fold ever so slightly as the rear steps out?

[Uncle Snake]

This thread has made me TOTALLY limp.......

[Currently]

But it is not about you, Jake!

[Uncle Snake]

But it is not about you, Jake!

No need to be mean Joe, it's always about me........

[Paul_E_D]

Uncle Snake, Head over to the "Got my L's back" thread to get your wood back.

[DerekSBelanger]

You know - no one has answered why:

We think adding pressure to the tank with the outside leg via body position will reduce lean angle

but

When we talk about tightening a line mid corner we think that adding the same kind of pressure will add lean angle

[Paul_E_D]

I can't really follow you. When did someone say pressing in on the tank would reduce lean angle. This thread is based on lots of second hand info and/or interpretation. Not a great platform for learning. Is your point that some coaches contradicted each other? Because that will happen. The context of the conversation is missing.

[DerekSBelanger]

In the last two pictures, who do you think is more in touch with the front end of the bike? Looking at the arms, who is holding the bars tighter, and who has a better position feel the front fold ever so slightly as the rear steps out?

Thanks for the great question, Paul. Too bad I have no idea what the right answer is.

My experience is that when your body is close to the bike it moves in a way that is more similar to the bike’s motion even if your arms, legs and hands are relaxed.

Visualize a slinky (or soft spring) standing vertically on a motorcycle seat and riding around the race track.

Now visualize a slinky horizontal on a motorcycle seat driving around the racetrack.

Do you see what I mean?

So based on this my guess is the guy on the left…but honestly…the guy on the right looks more relaxed.

[DerekSBelanger]

I can't really follow you. When did someone say pressing in on the tank would reduce lean angle.

Well, we all agree that body position can have influence on lean angle...


...and it seems to me that our body influences the bike in the places the bike and rider are connected. (pegs, seat, TANK, bars)

[wiggeywackyo]

Topic: COUNTERBALANCE, BODY POSITION and LEAN ANGLE

OK! At the August 4th track day Gram (a TTD instructor and massively credible fellow) said to me “You can’t go any faster or you’re going to go off the edge of the tire. You’ve got too much lean angle.” Well…that’s a really big problem because

a) I want to go faster
b) I don’t want to go off the edge of the tire

*GRAM: feel free to correct me if I misquote or misunderstood anything you said* He recommended that I adopt a more upright body position on the bike with the idea that an elevated head and torso will produce more leverage toward counterbalancing the bike (the main reason we hang off in the first place, if I’m not mistaken) and thereby reduce lean angle. If you’ve watched any DSB this year, Martin Cardenas is using this style and making the rest of the DSB paddock look average (with the exception of the Buell) so you’re brave if you want to claim it can’t work. One more important thing I want to mention before moving on is that whatever counterbalance force you produce should be transmitted to the bike through your legs and feet, right? Else you’d have to be putting weight on the bars. Am I right?

So, let’s take another direction for a moment. What is one thing you can do to tighten a line mid corner? (Pete did a great job discussing this with us in the Yellow group classroom) Many people believe that putting pressure against the tank with your outside leg will help adjust the lean/turn of the bike.

At the moment I feel these two statements are conflicting. One says that adding counterbalance force decreases lean angle and the other says that adding counterbalance force increases lean angle.

Can you think of any professional riders who are doing the opposite of elevated head and torso and making it work?

Who’s got something to say on the topic!?

After rereading your post I think that you have a bunch of ideas confused with each other.


The idea of counter balancing as it applies to riding would be leaning off. You lean into the turn in order to move the CG of the rider/bike mass inwards and in effect, reduce the amount of bike lean angle.

Where you are getting confused is the idea of putting force into the tank. In this case, you are not counter balancing but forcing the bike to lean more. Think of how you can turn the bike slightly with just body english when you are riding without hands. I am guessing that this technique was mentioned as a way to make mid-corner adjustments? This is not counterbalancing by definition. Maybe someone mucked up the terms and it was confusing you.

Anyone?

[rolker]

...and it seems to me that our body influences the bike in the places the bike and rider are connected. (pegs, seat, TANK, bars)

It should not matter which SOLID part of the bike is used to anchor yourself in order to achieve a certain lean angle. What is important is that the combined center of gravity is moved to the appropriate position to be in balance with forces present at the given state (speed, angle, radius of turn, phase of the moon, etc)

If laying down on the tank can achieve the same combined C of G as duct-tapping your ass to the seat, then the lean angle should be the same as well, given all other parameters are the same. (If you want to get picky, the significance of the role of the aerodynamic differences will depending on the situation...)

Now, I don't consider the bars as a solid anchor point in this discussion for obvious reasons...

[DerekSBelanger]

So, then, what would pushing down on the tank with your knee accomplish?

[OreoGaborio]

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Lube.... Er, Glyde: Mozilla/5.0 440x240 Samsung SCH-U940 NetFront/3.4)

helps lean the bike over more w/o more pressure on the bars..... Like I explained in the classroom Please remember.... Even though we have to obey the laws of physics, this is still just as much of an ART form as it is a science.

[DerekSBelanger]

Oh! and...

...does lean angle (position of the mass) efect where CoG is located?

and....

...does centrifugal force act from the center of mass the same way gravity does?

[Mr. Kurtz]

Thanks, all of you! That does help. I have a long arm across the tank like hopkins. Here's a pic.



Now. One little problem left. You guys are all awesome, and so is Gram, but you dont seem to agree with him? Maybe I need to get some video of my lines up here and we can see if thats where the problem really is.

Paging Mr Kurtz!

I'll see what I can find of you Derek. That is, by the way, an awesome picture, I hope you're getting the high res of that!

[DerekSBelanger]

Pete, your right about the art and science of the thing. If it was an understanding of natural law that made you go fast...just plop any physicist on a bike and he'd be flying!

Still, without reasons, how do we know what to do and what not to do?

[DerekSBelanger]

I'll see what I can find of you Derek. That is, by the way, an awesome picture, I hope you're getting the high res of that!

Thanks, Mike! I suck, but that pic makes me look like a stud!

[Paul_E_D]

trial and error.

But dude, if you think this much about it, you'll be slow as hell.

[DerekSBelanger]

trial and error.

But dude, if you think this much about it, you'll be slow as hell.

Your right and I'm proof!

[DerekSBelanger]

Maybe I need one thread for nerds and one for normals.

You get great information from both kinds, but they arnt always compatible

[SVRACER01]

i think that youre trying too hard to get your knee down. stop. start over. and get back to basics. start with head/ shoulder position. then as you get faster you can incorporate a little ass movement. first 1/4 of an ass cheek then a 1/2 and so on, all while maintaining head and shoulder position. you dont necessarily have to be laying on the tank to have your head in the right place.