Derek's awesome and never ending thread

[Trouble]

My last track days were the first ones I even tried to determine my lap times. More out of a curiosity thing than any other. I still feel like I have a lot of room for improvement so the timing gives me a benchmark on roughly where I stand. I haven't started racing the clock yet, and probably won't for a while.

That having been said, chasing other riders that are slightly faster has helped me increase my corner speed and move my braking points closer to the corner. Generally speaking I feel that if the other rider can do it, my bike can do it. I just need to build the confidence and skills so that I can do it too.

I've done quite a few track days this year, and a few last year. Until my last track day I really never found myself riding at a similar pace to another rider for more than a lap or so. I think as I'm getting faster I'm starting to run into more riders of similar abilities and I'm trying to find ways to use them to further my learning. I've been having fun with it and really enjoying riding with you all.

[CEO]

Generally speaking I feel that if the other rider can do it, my bike can do it

Don't try this in race practice when a single digit expert goes by you and you try to grab a tow... it doesn't end well

[Trouble]

My point was that I wasn't being limited by my bike. The bike has the capacity to go a whole lot faster around the track with a better rider on it. As my confidence and skills continue to progress I'll be more likely to be able to keep up with the faster riders.

[Paul_E_D]

Competition provides accelerated learning opportunities. It's not necessarily just the competitive mindset, but the whole structure of racing that takes you out of your comfort zone and FORCES you to try new things.

You can't get new results from the same old inputs. This is why stagnation happens quickly in a controlled trackday environment. You simply WON'T try to change something you feel you're doing correctly, especially if there is elevated risk involved.

[CEO]

This is why stagnation happens quickly in a controlled trackday environment. You simply WON'T try to change something you feel you're doing correctly, especially if there is elevated risk involved.

+1 the last probably 4 or 5 track days I did before I started racing I didn't get any faster... then my first race weekend i dropped 7 seconds

[xsiliconkid]

Recently I’ve heard a lot of comments about competition helping “you to push harder” – weather it be against another racer or against the clock.

I have to say, it's very different for me!

I can only go as fast as I know how. If I do anything else, I go slower. Does anyone else feel the way I do?

For those of you who like the feeling of being “pushed” – why do you like it and why do you think it may be that you can’t do this “pushing” on your own? It’s very interesting to me, I’m not talking down at anyone, really I’m just curious (old psych minor kicking in?).

It's not being "pushed", in a competitive environment it is being pulled along...chasing the guy in front....you stop worrying about unimportant things focus is more "riding in the Zone"

Focusing on lap times is wrong! Start thinking about your lap times and it will have a negative impact.... Lap times are the results of on track changes... change a corner entry , a brake point, a suspension tweak, tire air pressure, different tires etc etc.... you improve what you measure.....
It is the result of on track behavior - you can not always tell while on track if you are improving or not....

I have mentionedthis many times, "Racers are generally surprised that the laps they thought were the slowest end up being their fastest laps".
Q: WHY?

[rolker]

My point was that I wasn't being limited by my bike. The bike has the capacity to go a whole lot faster around the track with a better rider on it. As my confidence and skills continue to progress I'll be more likely to be able to keep up with the faster riders.

That's exactly how I feel on my 125. I'm pretty sure that bike can carry as much corner speed or more than anything else at Loudon, so if I follow someone faster than me through a corner, I know that I can eventually do that as well as soon as I build up the skills.

Competition provides accelerated learning opportunities. It's not necessarily just the competitive mindset, but the whole structure of racing that takes you out of your comfort zone and FORCES you to try new things.

It's amazing how less than 8 laps to go and a few bike lengths between you and the guy you're after affects your mindset. At a track day, there is always another lap, another session or another day and it doesn't matter in what order you cross the finish line so that environment rarely pushes you to go at 110% your normal pace for more than perhaps a certain turn you might be working on at the time.

It's not being "pushed", in a competitive environment it is being pulled along...chasing the guy in front....you stop worrying about unimportant things focus is more "riding in the Zone"

That's exactly how I see it. Being pulled, not pushed. You might get a good lap by hitting all your marks, pushing yourself to the limit of you comfort zone at every turn, but there's nothing like a two wheeled carrot in front of you to pull you way out of your comfort zone!

This racing thing is still new to me, but here's how I experienced what Graham refers to as "riding in the zone". During my last race, I was preoccupied with figuring out how to get around others in the least amount of time. Hitting my marks became more of a automatic reflex and my mind was thinking more something like... "well, if I brake a little later, I might get by him before the apex". My subconscious would take care of adjusting my marks accordingly as my conscious mind was busy figuring out how to get my the next guy or what to try next if this doesn't work.

During the lap where I beat my PB by 2 seconds, I was not thinking at all about lap time. That was the lap where I took 2nd place away from the guy I had been following all race.

[DerekSBelanger]

Thanks for the comments everyone!

I don’t have any good ideas that explain why some people want to call it pushing and others want to call it pulling – so for now we will use the words interchangeably.

Ryan: if I misinterpret anything please correct me and if you have anything to ad please do because so far you’re the only one who seems to have the same angle I do on this topic.

Ryan breaks “pushing” into two parts race skills (passing) and pace skills (lap times). I think this is an important distinction because, for the most part, you just cannot execute races skills without competitors to compete with. So for the rest of this discussion let’s leave race skills out and focus on pace skills.

Ryan also says that pushing, in his case, is centered on self evaluation and modification – which is just what I was getting at – this is how I feel about it. Look at what you do. Understand it. Change it. Look at it again until you understand the change. It doesn’t matter if you’re alone or with other people.

Gram: Can you please clarify your comments, because something confuses me. It seems you agree with Ryan about on track behavior and RPs (no problem – we get that). Then you say you can’t tell on track if your modified behavior is actually any faster (makes sense) but don’t chase the clock, chase other riders instead. This is where I get lost. Is chasing another rider any different than chasing the clock? It actually seems worse to me – it’s an uncontrolled experiment.

[RyanNicholson]

yea basically in theory, you should be able to get to a point where you can push yourself and make those changes whether theres a bike in front of you or not based on your reference points. It takes a lot of laps to get to that point, but thats when you can go out and run your fastest laps consistently. If you want to push yourself you can then make conscious decisions on what to change and use lap times to measure your result.

[Paul_E_D]

I agree you can get to that point Ryan, but without racing, it would take 5X as long. It is exactly those racing moves Derek wants to take out of the equation that force you to try new lines, new markers, to turn it in harder etc. You learn the secrets of the track, were you can push it, where you can't.

Riding alone with the track you can easily just repeat the same safe inputs. Let's face it, going fast and approaching the limit is STRESSFUL. The pain involved in making mistakes as you approach that limit is a powerful demotivator. I know that I would never put myself under that kind of stress if it weren't for the drive, focus, and reward provided by the racing environment.

[RyanNicholson]

I definitely agree paul.... thats why I mentioned the racing/passing part as more of a motivator or incentive, but not something use as a "gauge" I suppose. Trying to get around someone will encourage you to go faster, but it doesn't do you any good unless you know what you did to gain the speed and can replicate it (other than "got around that dude in T6").

[DerekSBelanger]

I have mentionedthis many times, "Racers are generally surprised that the laps they thought were the slowest end up being their fastest laps".

Q: WHY?

I love questions!

Because they equate effort with speed but there is only a weak relationship between them. In fact, at a certain point (when you try too hard), the relationship is inverted.

Is that right?

[xsiliconkid]

I love questions!

Because they equate effort with speed but there is only a weak relationship between them. In fact, at a certain point (when you try too hard), the relationship is inverted.

Is that right?

Nope.....

A. As you become more proficient and confident - your corner speed increases ....especially on hot laps in a flowing rhythm.
Therefore you are braking (decelerating) less into the turn as well as picking up the throttle on exit from a higher speed (accelerating)..... your head is an accelerometer - it measures rate of change very effective - not absolute speed - when you get into a high(er) corner speed rhythm- your rate of change in and out of the turn is not only shorter but at a less steep rate ..... You are going faster –

Here is the problem without external input.
Your inner ear senor is communicating data to your brain that it's interpreting, “we are going slower”....better get more aggressive - which is exactly the wrong message your brain then communicates to your throttle brake appendage.

We humans were not designed for hi speed - therefore we have to practice, practice, and practice to retrain how we interpret our sensors.

[Doc]

I have mentionedthis many times, "Racers are generally surprised that the laps they thought were the slowest end up being their fastest laps".
Q: WHY?

It is true! When I am smooth and everything flows I go faster. I am not working as hard and my mind isn't having to process as much (all my fuck ups that happen 100 times a lap). It is easier and seems slower.

[DerekSBelanger]

Cool! So if you slow down less you can speed up less and maintain the same average speed or maybe even go faster, but it feels easier...like...

less + less = more

I like that.

Graham, you know how and where I'm fast and slow (or more accurately slow and slower) - is there a turn/section where I need to work on this the most? Is my overall style one where I'm maintaining speed (like we are discussing here), or do I need to revise my approach?

I've been getting a ton of online help and think I need to turn it all into a plan for September 29th. I don’t want to overlook this point if it’s something I really need to work on.

[FirstLightning]

Trying to get around someone will encourage you to go faster, but it doesn't do you any good unless you know what you did to gain the speed and can replicate it (other than "got around that dude in T6").

Ryan- So how do you develop the feel / instinct / understanding of what you did to be successful (or for that matter fail - crash)?

Is it just laps / practice?

Thanks,
Matt

[xsiliconkid]

Ryan- So how do you develop the feel / instinct / understanding of what you did to be successful (or for that matter fail - crash)?

Is it just laps / practice?

Thanks,
Matt

Good follow up question....

if it was easy/simple - then we all could be superfast out the shoot...

three simple steps...

1. Laps, lots of them is the foundation...without them you go nowhere. You have to get all the normal “stuff" that happens every lap in muscle memory, shifting, brake markers, accel points - what happens when I am 2' off my normal line. What do I then do etc etc.. All this has to be driven into the subconscious so your conscious mind has bandwidth to process abnormal things.
Every time you have a "pucker moment" sends you small steps backwards...
That’s' why we say increase speed incrementally.... don't ride ahead of your ability.....

2. As early as possible a trained eye (instructor) break any bad habits forming-get you back on the narrow path for when you step to the next level.

3. As you get comfortable it's then time to nudge forward back into the uncomfort zone (whatever it is - left hander’s, right hander’s, trail braking, early gas etc etc... and then work on that...

A few of us were chatting about our early race days when we usually crashed a bunch.... Thinking back everyone said the stuff the bike did then when we crashed - now we would not even give it a second thought.... early days we made the bike(s) crash- when it did something unexpected we tried to correct react - and it usually exactly the opposite that is correct.... (Example rear wheel spinning, action shut the throttle....why am I sitting on the ground.


A great example is to watch is the Woods come through T6 at NHMS.... the front usually pushes about a foot or more (slips) they just keep loose, draped over the bike and it picks up... even a quick stiffing of the arms on the bars and the chances of losing the front goes up a big time....all this stuff has to be learnt.....

That's why track days are so GOOD... you get a chance to try many things outside the firing line so to speak.

[xsiliconkid]

Cool! So if you slow down less you can speed up less and maintain the same average speed or maybe even go faster, but it feels easier...like...

less + less = more

I like that.

Graham, you know how and where I'm fast and slow (or more accurately slow and slower) - is there a turn/section where I need to work on this the most? Is my overall style one where I'm maintaining speed (like we are discussing here), or do I need to revise my approach?

I've been getting a ton of online help and think I need to turn it all into a plan for September 29th. I don’t want to overlook this point if it’s something I really need to work on.

It has nothing to do where you are slow or fast - it has all to do where you feel uncomfortable - the spectrum runs from- pucker-factor-meter rings the bell, down to frustrated or uncomfortable..(Uncomfortable becomes a bell ringer as you go faster).

You tell us the turns that have you anxious-that's the turns to work on.... obviously instructors can tell quickly by following where the stiff arms/not relaxed comes into play - but the best feedback is you saying.. Where you are not totally relaxed on the bike....

Try this..... run a few laps a second or two slower ---- you will be amazed at how relaxed you feel and how easy it is...but just a short while ago you struggled to reach that achievement..... it's al relative.

[RyanNicholson]

yea Graham pretty much hit it right on the head from my experience too... just laps, and more laps, and more laps, and then a couple more. And watch/learn anybody that knows what they're doing and see how they do it (body position, line, how they brake, where they're getting on the gas, etc). Ask a lot of questions, DON'T BE AFRAID TO TRY NEW THINGS and be extremely methodical about it so you can gauge what works and what doesn't for you.

It won't happen over night and the harder you try to speed up the learning curve, the slower you'll learn and the more $$ you'll spend. But yea, its just practice.... but practice with a purpose. Its good to have a goal for every session (even if its just nailing a couple corners correctly 8 laps in a row or something). If you don't have a goal you'll lolligag around and it won't help you nearly as much.

[DerekSBelanger]

Ok, here’s the plan for the next track day. (September 29th)

The basic goals are

1. Flatten my lines. I’m turning too much at the apex and I’m too far away from the curbs. If I use a flatter line – should be able to raise roll speed.
2. Tighter braking. I don’t like hard braking, but I shouldn’t be lazy either and right now I am.

This how I’ll try to reach the goals

• New braking point for T1
• Earlier turn in point for T2 (add some gas when the new line starts making sense)
• Earlier turn in for T3
• Look for more feel in T3 by experimenting with trail braking
• New breaking point for T6
• Earlier turn in and pre-apex throttle in T6
• Turn in for T9&10 is good – add more speed until the line becomes wide
• More gas between T10-T11
• New braking point for T11
• Consistently maximize speed on the straight. I have a habit of just relaxing on the straight. I don’t have any shifting points. I move my hands and arms too much when shifting.

Some other practical stuff I may try to do is

• Try to hook up with an instructor who also rides and SV
• Get some onboard video from Mr. Kurtz
• See if Roland will let me borrow his GPS for a session or two
• Use a body position that wont distract the instructors form how I’m actually riding

[The Snowman]

Ok, time to break out the stop watches....

Looks like a mid / low 1:28 to me

Maybe mid/high 1:28. You cross the line at :04, just about :05 and cross again at about mid 1:33

In any case, good job!

[Paul_E_D]

That's a season or two worth of goals IMO. It's a well thought out list.

You can only really process one new input and its results at a time, so be methodical and don,t worry if you are only improved on one or two points at the end of the day.

[xsiliconkid]

Ok, here’s the plan for the next track day. (September 29th)

The basic goals are
[/LIST]

A good list – I would suggest not trying to accomplish everything in one day..

Split into logical groups by turns...
then only work on one small set each session...That is, only work on one key thing in the turn e.g., if you are working on quicker turn in don’t also work on later braking –to turn in quicker you do need to come in a bit quicker – but I would be getting off the brakes earlier until you have the rhythm down….. Then switch next session to moving your brake marker fwd….scaring yourself sends you backwards…

Maybe semantics - but take your Turn 3 entry goal. T3 it's not really about an earlier turn in (unless you have been turning in past the last cone) it’s a quicker turn in at the one and only correct turn in point.

ps there are no formal instructors/instruction that day just riders:-)..... but feel free to chat with us of course!

[xsiliconkid]

Derek , is your helmet a HJC AC10 or 20 in Yates graphics?

[DerekSBelanger]

Thanks for the tips!

Yep, I'm turning in after the last cone in T3.

Helmet is HJC AC20 Yates. Are you getting close to figuring out the helmet vs EveryLap situation?