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I was kidding. :lol: I am new to the Trackday instructor/control rider thing so I stay in the red or yellow groups to do my work and I am still learning but I think I keep my wits about me, I learn new stuff each time I do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteriousR1
If I am in Blue I am just riding. :D
The answer is to leave those people to a control rider/instructor who has a higher horsepower bike. If you need to pick your spot to get a pass on a trackday customer, there's a mismatch somewhere, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
I'm not defending or crucifying anyone here. I don't know what happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by OreoGaborio
What I will say is that as much as it is the passing rider's responsibility to pass safely, it is also every trackday rider's responsibility to ride in a predictable manner. I have seen the "sudden swoop" literally hundreds of times. If you are passing someone of considerably less ability than yourself, you may well be still on the gas while they are on the brakes for a turn. Even if you position yourself well to the outside of them, there is always the chance of a swoop left to turn right scenario. Turn 7 after the bridge at VIR North is a classic example of this. People seem to have the need to get all the way left to take that right-hander and they sometimes move left quite late and I have seen a few fast riders forced onto the grass there by a slower rider taking too much of the track dpace. No-one should be within 6 feet of the side of the track except at apexes.
I have a very very close friend who I was on track with a while back who went to pass a slower rider on the right, then decided left would be better at the last minute (it was a 'pass either side' situation). This person suddenly veered left about 10 feet with myself and one other faster rider coming past on the left. My front wheel missed this person's rear wheel by about 6 inches and when I braked, the person with me almost rear-ended me. It would have been a 4-bike debacle. The crash was averted by luck and I spoke to my friend about his move in the pits afterwards. He was not happy about it but I felt it had to be said and he understood afterwards what had happened and how he was unpredictable.
Bottom line, just because you get rear-ended, doesn't mean it's not your fault. Yes, control riders should:
a: Have more ability to avoid an accident than most trackday riders.
b: Take extra precautions to avoid the unpredictable trackday rider.
...but it's not always possible to avoid an incident. Like Pete says, sometimes, it's just shit luck. You take all the precautions you can, but at the end of the day, people will always make mistakes occasionally.
I have probably ridden more trackday miles than 99% of the people here and I have never, ever come into contact with another rider on a trackday. I have had 1 lowside from running wide in 5 and clipping the dirt as a customer 9 years ago and once as a control rider I lowsided in pouring rain in turn 2. I'm lucky, but i'm always on the lookout for the other person doing something stupid and I always leave room and ride predictably. I also know my limits. Could I hang with the advanced group? Sure, most of them. However, I almost never ride in advanced. I would be riding above 80% ability if I did, and I don't like those odds.
If you think that at any time, you need to go to the trackday organizer and tell them immediately. Nip it in the bud when it happens. No trackday organizer will ignore you. The fact that you were concerned or scared or worried means that a mistake was made by someone out there and it needs to be addressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteriousR1
OK, read the WERA thread. Got all I needed from the first post.
"The incident took place at the end of the straight away prior to the braking markers. I still had the throttle pinned and was tucked behind the windscreen when I was hit. I was already to the left side of the track but not all the way to the edge of the pavement. There is a kink in the straightaway that puts you off line a little. I maybe had 3 feet to go before I was to the very edge of the track. I was slowly moving over to the left getting ready to enter the braking zone and about 3 seconds later I felt an impact on my left shoulder blade."
Three feet to go and still moving over? That's what was the major contributor to the incident. Take out that factor and it would not have happened, no matter who was to blame. At anything over 50mph, you cannot leave that small amount of space and get away with it. At let's conservatively say 130MPH, you're going to get hit eventually that close to the edge. The problem lies with the fact that he probably did that lap after lap after lap and no-one passed him. Now, someone who knows the track VERY well and was obviously faster than this guy happens to be coming up on him this time and is looking to pass (the guy said he was still in a tuck, so it's on the gas). I say the faster rider watched his gap get smaller and smaller and had not much choice. I get the gut feeling that the guy who got hit admits to 3 feet and slowly moving over means he moved over fast and probably right to the very edge. Just a gut feeling. I have no facts so I cannot pass judgment on him except to say that unless you have a #1 plate, 3' from the edge is NOT your piece of property. Was Ted to blame? Probably also, yes. It would seem to me that he could have had time to get hard on the brakes and avoid this collision but thought he had space to get through and misjudged it because his margins were not realistic. As soon as the guy was within 5 or 6 feet of the edge, I personally would have been in 'abort the pass' mode and braked and sat right on his tail in case other riders were bearing down on me.
Well put, Degs, you're on a roll. I couldn't agree more.
but this guy wasn't a new guy. someone said he'd been riding in the advanced group. I know some people have gotten there pretty quickly but you aren't starting your first day in advanced so you've done some time on the track and should be able to follow proper track etiquette.Quote:
Originally Posted by naked-daytrader
Degsy hit it on the head perfectly. There have been plenty of times where I've ben able to pass people but chose not too for a few corners just to see if they are predictable. If I have confidence that they can hold their line and not do something that's gonna take us both out then I find a good place to make the pass. The only trophy I wanna go home with after a track day is my bike in the same condition is arrived in, just with slightly less rubber on it.
Right... I am quicker in the corners and they are quicker on the straights. That is the mismatch. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Degsy
If i talk to em before we go out it is not a problem. It is the guys who I come across on track that I am trying to get in front of to signal that are the problem... I always suck em back up on the entrances. :D Oh and I never follow there line, I am always keeping an out in case they crash in front of me (again).
:hijack:
pass them in the corner then pat your tail so they know you're gonna show them some stuff. always worked when its been done to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
Agreed, Oreo did that at a TTD for me, was pretty ovious it ment to follow his moves.Quote:
Originally Posted by CBR929RE
I do that... but passing in a corner, I feel I have to be more careful to not spook anybody.Quote:
Originally Posted by CBR929RE
Actually I was just trying to get you to look at my ass :teehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteriousR1
:sailor:Quote:
Originally Posted by OreoGaborio
With all the miles I have on the track, my only close calls have been exactly what I think happened here.
I am not sure how to get people to stop doing the "move left to go right" type of thing, but it is extremely dangerous.
At a track with a long straight, it's even more dangerous.
Take Jersey, for example. You have a higher horsepower bike in front, so the smaller bike has to sort of draft the whole straight... then pass when the other guy pops up to brake.
If you are trying not to stuff the guy, you are setting up on his outside. If he pops up and moves to that space, you're screwed.
If you go down the straight 4 feet from the edge... then take the corner from that spot. If you feel you need to be at the last bit of track... then go down the whole straight there.
Be predictable!
:plusone:Quote:
Originally Posted by 35racer
Doc tried that shit with me once, and I just gave him the :twofingerQuote:
Originally Posted by Doc
Amen to that. At Loudon it happens in 1, 6, and 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by 35racer
some kid tried to pass me in 11, and all he did was give my 9 year old nephew the shocker :spit:Quote:
Originally Posted by DBKromz
Saw it happen in 3 right in front of me, twice. The second time, the bike that got "shut out" locked up his rear wheel, and I was close enough that I almost got tangled in it, but I had just enough room to duck inside to clear him as he ran wide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_E_D
Yeah, but in 3 you should really just get in line through the braking zone. If you're not making the pass at the first cone, it's too late. Getting pinched there means you were trying to pass way too late.
Thanks for saving me the typing time, Paul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_E_D
I agree, because you're supposed to be scrubbing off a lot more speed before turn in, but I'm thinking the problem (at least from my view behind the two of them) was that the first rider was off the line braking way too early, and the second rider caught up to him too fast, too deep before getting pinched. Maybe he just didn't expect the front guy to cut left-right before he finished his braking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_E_D
Interesting conversation.
I've been in this situation before, but it's usually been when I wasn't "instructing", rather I was out stretching my legs a bit... a bit of "Ken" time, if you will.
It's frustrating when you're on a hot lap and you come upon a slower rider (oftentimes not too much slower than the staff when riding in the Blue group). The "racer" in many of us says, ZAP 'EM. It takes a lot of discipline to back off.
Being "squeezed" into T1 in NJ or NH is terrifying, because the difference in closing speeds can be huge. I try to remember that even though I may be at 75%, the other rider ahead might be at 90% and feels as though he needs the whole track to make T1. It's not true, but they don't know that.
Experienced and well-disciplined/trained staff should be able to "see it coming" well before it happens. Unfortunately, even the most responsible CRs can get caught in situations that they could not predict.
yup, if its a trackday then I'd say 3 should just be taken in line unless you have the pass done nice and early. I always just kind of throw that corner away. I don't park it through there, I just stay on line and be smooth through and steady through it cause that wall just scares me too much to push it. I bet I lose a second or 2 in that corner alone and I'm completely comfortable with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by KawiSmurf650
yea, not the corner to be a hero at a trackday