No-frillsTrack day opinions

[Paul_E_D]

I couldn't read this whole thread, but I would want it to be just like thursday practice. That IS a no frills trackday. No passing rules a must. Split the groups big bike/little bike. This is thinking outside the box.

TTDs are great, but you'd have to go the other direction to offer something different. We have a core group that could handle it IMO.

[RyanNicholson]

TTDs are great, but you'd have to go the other direction to offer something different. We have a core group that could handle it IMO.

clockwise?

[Boston Moto]

I really think this is on the right track Paul.

3 groups,

1.Typical TTD yellow/blue
2. Racer little bike
3. Racer big bike

How about pricing? Be serious. What would this be worth?

How many should we limit each group to? 20? 25?

We would probably sell an event like this group-by-group.

[Boston Moto]

clockwise?

Now THAT'S thinking outside the box. How interesting.

Tony, have you ever asked about this?

[s a x m a n]

$200 seems like a fair price to me

[CEO]

We would probably sell an event like this group-by-group.

The only issue with this (ask Dennis and me, although in our case it wasn't a big deal at Lightning) is that as groups sell out (the TD group will sell out quick probably), people will sign up for groups that may or may not be appropriate for them because that is the only remaining space.

Not sure if there's a good way around it... whether you self-police, or sign up ahead of time, you're either going to end up with some groups larger than others, or some groups having some riders in them that may not belong there...

Now THAT'S thinking outside the box. How interesting.

Tony, have you ever asked about this?

Coming down the hill around T4-3 and going from the front straight into the T12 chicane would be puckering, to say the least.

Althought for the front straight issue you could run the line the cars run (11 goes out across the hot pit and onto the front straight, no T12)

[s a x m a n]

10 into 9 would be interesting as well

i know its loudon and walls are expected, but at speed that might be too much ... i don't think you could safely run an event clockwise at loudon

[GixerJockey]

Price must be significantly less than a "normal" track day. Somewhere under $200... $175 maybe?

[Manny]

Now THAT'S thinking outside the box. How interesting.

Tony, have you ever asked about this?

I talked to tony about this when we did MM together and were on the track walk. He said no way possible with he current configuration. Didnt get much beyond that with him though.

[GixerJockey]

If it's a "NO FRILLS" track day, then I would be opposed to messing with the track configuration that we all know. Relaxed passing rules, higher than normal track day speeds, and messing with the track configuration makes for some unsafe conditions that we as track day goers usually don't have to worry about.

[Kitt]

If it's a "NO FRILLS" track day, then I would be opposed to messing with the track configuration that we all know. Relaxed passing rules, higher than normal track day speeds, and messing with the track configuration makes for some unsafe conditions that we as track day goers usually don't have to worry about.

even if track configuration is just the oval? come-on! you'd finally be sub 1:30's!!!

[nt650hawk]

clockwise?

I was moderately thinking on similar lines. How about a tight T10.

[RyanNicholson]

I was moderately thinking on similar lines. How about a tight T10.

for the record I was really just kinda playing off of Paul's "to offer something different you'll have to go the other direction" comment....

but playing with the track config could be fun. Shame they didn't run the tight 10 this year...

[SVRACER01]

i havent read through all of this but im gonna say a change in passing rules. maybe the fast/racer group should be allowed inside passing.
we did inside passing in AZ. SURE..you have your instances of 2 ppl getting tangled but no more than what you see with outside passing. i can see both sides of the coin on this subject. but fast guys/ racers should be able to handle this as long as you dont do anything "stupid". like theres no need to stuff ppl.
other than that, 3 groups, 20 min sessions. i like the set times for sessions that Tony does, food and drink i usually bring.

[SVRACER01]

Now THAT'S thinking outside the box. How interesting.

Tony, have you ever asked about this?

are you crazy? could you imagine coming into T3 from the other direction?
or the speed you would be carrying into the bowl?

[MotoFreak]

Speed wouldn't/shouldn't be the deciding factor. You can be fast and a hazard to others, or slow and mesh just fine with the faster riders. The key is how well you know the line and react in traffic.

For me, I don't mind the 20 on, 40 off setup. If I had a choice, I'd say call it an 'advanced' day, with three equal groups. Let people shuffle amongst the groups as long as the numbers stay even. That way I can stay separate from a friend, and when he's out there observe from the sidelines.

+1



How about pricing? Be serious. What would this be worth?$175-$200
Depends on '09 pricing too...

How many should we limit each group to? 20? 25?
Whats it usually at TTD or CornerSpeed?
20-22 sounds like a good amount per group.

We would probably sell an event like this group-by-group.
Biggest hiccup I can see is guys like me ...I def. want to run in a TD like this, due to price and the foucs on Track Time. However I need 1 or 2 more though before I sign up for a BM "No Frills" TD.
If you pitch the TD the right way, offer verbal and written disclaimers about the serious level of the TD and how it is highly recommended that you have at least 4 TD's (or whatever # ya'll think would offer the right amount of experience and comfort level) then you will filter out most of the inexperienced riders who think they can ride this kind of setting.

[DucDave]

OK....little Marketing 101.

Who's your customer???

You need to decide this before you go any further.

If your customer is the track day addict and not racers then your passing rules and group size and segmentation should be adjusted accordingly.

If you are looking to provide a venue for racers to get more practice then adjust accordingly.

If you want both then you need to acknowlege the differencd and adjust groups and rules to accomodate both. (Blue for currently licenced racers only? No passing rules?)

Finally, I'd like to point out that there are a lot of 'track day only riders' out there who probably have more total laps than many racers and are at least as fast as the typical Amature and many Experts. (...and no, that's not me...)

[Awesome]

Finally, I'd like to point out that there are a lot of 'track day only riders' out there who probably have more total laps than many racers and are at least as fast as the typical Amature and many Experts. (...and no, that's not me...)

Agree to completely disagree.

[Pittenger5]

A few MAYBE, but in the limited experience i had in the track day segment, Id tend to disagree with you Dave

[s a x m a n]

Agree to completely disagree.

werd


Track Day pace is totally different than race pace

[OreoGaborio]

Regarding DucDave's post, I can ALMOST agree about the laps thing... I probably had more laps around Loudon than some AM's because of my TD background (a13x can attest to that), but I was no where as NEAR as fast as them despite running in the faster 1/2 of the blue group TD guys.

I'm sure Jamie can say the same for his experience. We were both MAYBE doing 1:25's (and i'm guessing that's extremely optimistic) before we started racing. Granted we were both quick our rookie years in the novice class, but we wouldn't have been competitive in the AM ranks right off the bat, no way.

[GixerJockey]

As someone that's planning on going racing next season... I would welcome the faster pace... Give's me something to chase.

[xsiliconkid]

A no-frills day should be run such that people get the maximum track time with the least amount of riders, while still allowing the organization to make whatever their needed profit is.

I would gladly give up catered lunch and garage space if that meant more track time and fewer people out there.

No matter how advanced the group is, IMO control riders and/or instructors are good to have around for short 1 on 1 sessions for line help, etc. as well as the obvious lookout for yahoos and folks who might need to tone it down a bit.

Just an idea, if you're going to cater it towards fast trackday folks and racers, you could make it two 30 minute sessions (advanced trackday folks and novices, then amateurs and experts maybe or something like that) where the two sessions are treated sort of like open track time for each respective group

The best /lowest$ no frill no rules track days I attend are at NHMS, put on by the race track itself - on at least every Thursday prior to LRRS race week ends... listed on the track's website under open test sessions
http://www.nhms.com/schedule/opentest/
Right now the schedule is not up for 2009.
They are at least 1/2 day and around $100

There is typically an unlicensed group (prob equiv to yellow blue) if you are unlicensed but have taken the Penguin race school. When there are just a few riders the unlicensed and Novice licensed racers are combined.
I run the expert class, I have seen as little as 5-10 bikes on track in the novice session.. Sure it could go to 20 - but so what!....

Graham expert #58

[xsiliconkid]

Id love to know my lap timers, Id STRONGLY prefer to be able to tell my insurance agent it was a non-competitive non-timed event when I wad my street bike up somewhere

Urban legend time......"tell them you were at rider training, safety, rider education or whatever.....and it will be covered...
Now the truth....
The majority, if not all vehicle insurance companies are not dumb and now will deny coverage on anything associated with what could be considered a “closed course".

The non timed event is generally also a race track owner’s insurance thing - their coverage. That is why their own "practice sessions" are generally called "open test" or "suspension set up" to reduce their fees vs. their full on race event insurance fees.

Other insurance related. Editorial comment.
While we are on insurance & trying to lower costs to offer no frill days etc…. Insurance, is one big cost associated with whoever runs track days, race tracks demand it. We are taking about insurance that protects the race track owner , puts them behind the track day promoter’s insurance.

I have been involved with many different events over a long period - in the past, race tracks were a bit lax in follow up. Some Track day promoters did not even carry the "mandated" insurance. (Even thought the contract stated it must be there). Those that didn’t carry this huge insurance burden could of course lower their price to riders

Over the past two or three years race tracks have become more aggresive in follow up (even check on the type of insurance – does it cover closed course events and not just some business). This may be why historically some USA Track Day providers disappeared or cwere ancelled by the race track owner.
Imagine running one or two events and having to carry a $10,000 insurance fee….assume you want to limit to 60 or 70 riders per event this would be a burden between $60 - $166 per rider!

Race tracks now demand to sight policies and have got smarter - I heard a rumor some now want to sight the policy before any contracts are handed out and not prior to holding an event.

Food for thought
Graham

[xsiliconkid]

That will happen at any trackday... just have to deal with it.

that's why there are rules at track days...

I have been on "open tracks" - on my Motard. flew by the 600's into and through turns..- some (just takes one) 600 dudes get pissed, use their power to get inside on the straights and then stuff you in the corners or park it..... red mist - happens all the time....