Poll: New track day NHMS

[butcher bergs]

So you know every owner of all the orgs that have tried to run track days at NHMS? I was not referencing any of the organizations we all currently frequent. But I know for a fact at least one that lost a considerable amount of money after they couldn't fill a couple days to cover their costs.

So you are an accountant for "at least one" trackday organization?

[sdog30]

Sam, you're a smart dude so I'm sure you're well aware of the number of attendees required to make a trackday successful in that regard. Don't lose sight of the fact that you have 27 votes total at this time. That said, I hope you aren't relying on one data point (being this forum) as your descision-maker.

Best of luck regardless!

Yes, for sure. Just figured this was an easy, cross section to use as a sample.

Thanks brother.

[Mr. Kurtz]

Sam, be careful counting on racer interest as your main contingent of paid riders.

Thursday practices, arguably the best per lap value you can get for sheer race practice with no frills, aren't exactly filing up.

[TTD]

To be honest, I set this poll up to guage potential customer interest, not track day orgs.

Understood, and I would have stayed away if my name wasn't brought up.

Last thing I'll say here is that with all these tracks coming online, it might appear to be a great thing for my business - but it's potentially deadly.

If I cannot get a bunch of new riders (people not on NESR and BORN) to start doing trackdays, then after a very short period the tracks will not have enough business.

This is my biggest "issue" when new trackday orgs want to start up and their main focus is these forums. The only thing that accomplishes is additional splitting of the pie and no one is successful.

The main focus has to be on people that would not otherwise do a trackday. Bring in new "outside" trackday riders and then there is opportunity for more trackday orgs and longterm sustainability.

And yes, I know there are "new" riders on these forums that start doing trackdays every year - but that only replaces the number that stop doing them for various reasons.

[sdog30]

Those riders have to now make the trip to the CT dates. Just like the CT riders have been coming up to the NH dates for years.

If those riders instead go to your new NH dates - instead of trying the CT track - then it's directly affecting me.

Again, that's business and I'm not saying you can't do what you want - but don't kid yourself and think there's a huge pentup group of riders that can't find tracktime.

I see what your saying.

[R7]

for the record....no vendor at NHMS has ever "lost their shirt". many just stop doing them because it's not profitable enough to make it worth the time commitment.

...well maybe Savas lost his shirt, because that goofy Greek seems to never wear one at the track.

This!
I hear that term "i lost my shirt" all the time at work. Did they lose money, no..did they make what they could have, no! It's a simple term businesses use when they feel they should make more.


I forgot who ran the days, but it was the group that started around the same time BoMo started? Name is drawing a blank, but I remember conversation that for NHMS, the break even point for the bare bones track rental and 2 ambulances was around 30 paid customers at $200 each. I've also heard that number (30) mentioned in the past (team demon trackdays) when days were much much cheaper, so I'd guess the increase price per person, is well balanced with the increase in track costs.

[TTD]

I remember conversation that for NHMS, the break even point for the bare bones track rental and 2 ambulances was around 30 paid customers at $200 each. I've also heard that number (30) mentioned in the past (team demon trackdays) when days were much much cheaper, so I'd guess the increase price per person, is well balanced with the increase in track costs.

Definitely not true! Won't even cover the track cost - never mind CW's, Ambulances, Insurance, Overnight security, etc.

[nhbubba]

I very much respect you small business guys. I am out to maximize my return on my own investment. But never mistake that for any kind of lack of respect.

If those customers want to do more nh days, I think they would buy your membership and buy a day or two from me. Maybe I'm wrong. My main target is racers, and people that want to ride in nh. With 5 tracks all within our area I feel like there is a lot more track time available for everyone.

I think you are wrong.

Most of these subscription/membership/whatever deals are structured such that the more days you do, the cheaper they get, per day. This means anyone that signed up for such a deal with the goal of maximizing their $/track time ratio is going to be committed to sticking with their org. You would have to make your days very cheap to lure them away.

I think.

[sdog30]

Definitely not true! Won't even cover the track cost - never mind CW's, Ambulances, Insurance, Overnight security, etc.

^ this

[R7]

Definitely not true! Won't even cover the track cost - never mind CW's, Ambulances, Insurance, Overnight security, etc.

As I mentioned, it was a while ago..4-5 years at least. There was certainly no overnight security at the time, everyone had to wait at the gate in lines out to 106 the morning of the trackday.

[CBR929RE]

Let's say you are only doing 2 days at nh and Boston moto is doing none. If you were doing 6 days last year and Boston moto was doing 2, that means there are 6 days available. That's simple math to me. 600 potential spots. How does that take from you or any of the other orgs?

I don't think you're looking at it right. Lets say for example people do 5 days a year and before they did all 5 days at NHMS with all the various groups. now they want to try the 2 new close tracks but don't have the money to more than 5 days a year. so now their time at NHMS is cut. sometimes more is not always better.

[GixerJockey]

This!
I hear that term "i lost my shirt" all the time at work. Did they lose money, no..did they make what they could have, no! It's a simple term businesses use when they feel they should make more.


I forgot who ran the days, but it was the group that started around the same time BoMo started? Name is drawing a blank, but I remember conversation that for NHMS, the break even point for the bare bones track rental and 2 ambulances was around 30 paid customers at $200 each. I've also heard that number (30) mentioned in the past (team demon trackdays) when days were much much cheaper, so I'd guess the increase price per person, is well balanced with the increase in track costs.

LAPS...

[Manny]

Wirelessly posted

Speaking purely from my point of view - take it as what you want.

I have done track days at many tracks with many orgs and if you expect to be all things to all people it will never work. You can't have a group catered to racers and a group catered to beginners and shove everyone else in the middle. From my point of view - take it for what it's worth - I hate 4 groups - 15 min is too short for those of us that don't want to sit on the grid and be the first ones out and with 3 groups it just doesn't work to have 2 extreme ends (racer and beg) and put everyone in between.

[Kat_man]

LAPS...

Yeah, I did several days with those guys, if I remember correctly I paid $135/day signing up 30 days in advance, you can't beat that. I also remember thinking that their business model wouldn't hold up, they're gone, I don't know what happened but I'm sure I'll never see another $135 track day. That wasn't that long ago.

The bottom line is that the guys who do track days have to make some $s otherwise, why bother? Now I mostly do TTDs, he runs a good program, it's well organized, I always get plenty track time. In my mind that's the standard you're up against.

[Kat_man]

I very much respect you small business guys. I am out to maximize my return on my own investment. But never mistake that for any kind of lack of respect.


I think you are wrong.

Most of these subscription/membership/whatever deals are structured such that the more days you do, the cheaper they get, per day. This means anyone that signed up for such a deal with the goal of maximizing their $/track time ratio is going to be committed to sticking with their org. You would have to make your days very cheap to lure them away.

I think.

Your correct about the subscription deal, but I live within 40 mins. of NHNS and I'm going to jump on any deals at that track.

[nhbubba]

Goes to show, I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

[sdog30]

I had a TTD membership for the last two years and I still did a couple track days with nesba, 3 with bomo, a few with penguin and a few open test days this past year on top of the dates I did with Tony's. But that's me. I do get the "sticking with the membership" thing, though.

I hear what you guys are saying and appreciate all the feedback.

[tsorfas]

I'm not sure what Sam will end up doing but that was a very educational thread.
Best of luck to all track day organizations next year. Lots of tracks lots of potential.

Tony you know my racing year won't be the same without you there and I'm devistated already.

[Degsy]

Sam, I wish you all the best with this. Chances are I will attend a day at NHMS with you.

I'm sure a lot of sentiments here echo our conversation and my email to you a couple of months ago. I really wasn't being a dickhead. :-).

I know you won't underestimate the huge effort and cost involved in running a trackday. There are a bunch of things that can take you by surprise and despite the appearances, the amount of trackday signups out there for the taking is not that big. Tony knows his stuff. Take heed. There is a reason Boston Moto is sitting back and watching the moves and shakes before diving in for 2014. There are A LOT of trackdays available for 2014 and the growth of riders is going to take time. There is only so much trackday money out there for the taking.

Id like to add (laughing) that "losing your shirt" on a trackday is absolutely possible and we have had our share of that, especially early on. To run a professional event at NHMS costs over $10,000 a day. The break-even is up at 60 riders after taking into account discounts and memberships. Bomo limits our days to 75 people. You can see how we arent exactly putting deposits on Ferraris out of profits.

You should bank on losing $2000-$3000 on your first events and if you break even, thank your lucky stars.

Do it for the love, not the money. Leave the business of making money to Tony and Penguin. That's my advice.

[sdog30]

Thanks Degs. I appreciate it and definitely took into account our conversation. I've scaled back from the initial 6 days I told you I wanted to run there.

And there is a real fear of losing my shirt. And definitely would be doing it for the love of the sport and not the money.

[Manny]

Do it for the love, not the money. Leave the business of making money to Tony and Penguin. That's my advice.

Degs is a smart man but have to disagree with this. If you love riding pay to do it at someone else's day. If you want to make it in this or any business you have to approach it that you are going to loose your shirt and you need to want it bad. Doing it for the love is a sure way to be miserable. (And yes, I run my own business)

[sdog30]

If you love riding pay to do it at someone else's day.

This is exactly what I'm weighing out.

[Lxpony]

Sam.. I will be the first in line when your online store goes live and starts selling shirts that say "I got track time with STD"

STD= Sam's Track Days.

[sdog30]

Now that Degsy has mentioned Bomo's plans, I'll elaborate a little on mine.

Do I think you can run a track day with a very fast advanced and a super structured beginner group? Yes. Boston Moto was a good example of that. Beginners group had follow the leader for their first 3 sessions (as does Penguin in their track experience group, of I remember right) and tons of classroom and instructor assistance. The advanced group was mostly attended by racers and very fast td riders.

And I'm not so much trying to "take" customers from Tony or anyone else, I'm trying to continue to provide for Bomo customers in their lack of presence. I have some ideas on how to earn new td riders as well and understand I might get a few people from TTD that prefer loudon.

[sdog30]

Sam.. I will be the first in line when your online store goes live and starts selling shirts that say "I got track time with STD"

STD= Sam's Track Days.

That is definitely not the name of my company.