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Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

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    Member k1200s's Avatar
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    Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"


    So I just had my second post apex crash this weekend and I need it to be the last because its just not worth crashing the same way over and over again. My big issue is, I do not understand what happens when you hold a small displacement motorcycle down. I know 100% that it makes you crash, but I just cant understand how this actually happens on a small bike, on my K1200 or anything with some real power I get it, but I've crashed my ninja 250 twice now post apex and it doesn't make sense to me. This was at penguin both times and the second time Eric Wood had followed me and noticed it, and I can absolutely see that's what I'm doing in the videos, I'm way to the inside of every turn even after I've up-righted it.

    In my mind, under acceleration the rear tire is wrenching the rear of the motorcycle into the air which tops out the suspension but transfers weight to the rear as we travel forward, lightening the front and loading the rear. This also creates longitudinal force as the tire is plowed into the front of the bike and creates forward motion. When turned, gravity on the leaned bike creates latitudinal forces which are then countered by our longitudinal forces at speed to create a fake force that holds the motorcycle upright as both tires are plowed into the ground both sideways and forward with some pretty good friction. What my little mind cannot understand is where adding additional accelerating forces while maintaining lean causes the whole thing to fall apart. With the same latitudinal forces but more longitudinal forces the motorcycle will definitely want to stand up, but how the hell is my little 26 HP bike able to slap me down so consistently for it? I have felt some pretty damn good squirm when I actually execute properly, so why doesn't the bike squirm when you hold it down? It is noticeably more instantaneous than anything else I have experienced, I've even saved the front more times than I've recovered from holding it down, it bites insanely quick and I cant even tell whats happening.

    I don't want to keep holding it down at all, its probably the biggest thing holding me back right now, but knowing what is actually happening to the bike might help me get past this bad habit faster. Maybe its my phrasing but I'm getting nothing on Google and its like the only thing not explained Twist of the Wrist 2.

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    Lifer tsorfas's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    are you sure you are not trying to tighten the turn post apex?

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    Lifer burnham's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    I don't understand what holding the bike down means.

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    Lifer isaac_'s Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    I race an RC 390. Little bikes can do everything the big bikes can... if you the rider force it to do so. I'm going to guess that in your crash, the rear tire slid out? You yourself said what the problem is:

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    I'm way to the inside of every turn even after I've up-righted it.
    Having taken a few of Eric's advance classrooms, how I would infer "holding it down" is, you're not letting the bike stand up under acceleration. The phrase he uses is, "gas on, bike up." Loosen up your arms, let the bike go up, or push it up yourself.

    The other concept that you need to understand is that there is a limit at which your bike can no longer spin the rear. It may be you're not going fast enough to cross this threshold.

    You seem like the experimenting type. Imagine a wheel barrel. You have to tip it in to get it to change directions. What happens when tip it in, the wheel gets stuck, but you keep wanting to push it forward. You're going to spin out (let's say that you're pushing REALLY REALLY FAST). When you are "holding the bike down" it's like holding the front of the bike in place but just giving it gas (the reality is, you're moving but there is a downward force on the front tire).

    Just because you have a little bike doesn't mean you're immune to the crashes.

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    Last edited by isaac_; 08-29-17 at 06:14 PM.
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    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Holy fucking over-thinking it, Batman.


    Get the bike pointed through the turn earlier... stand it up sooner. End of story.

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 08-29-17 at 06:27 PM.
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    Holy fucking over-thinking it, Batman.


    Get the bike pointed through the turn earlier... stand it up sooner. End of story.
    c'mon Pedro - some people like the science behind it.

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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    When you're trying to figure out why you keep crashing the same way over & over again, the last thing you want to do is make it more complicated than it is.

    Simplify....

    We crash because we're asking the tires to do more than they're capable of doing. In this case, OP is asking them to turn and accelerate at the same time, which you can do... in moderation. Do more turning earlier, stop turning so much, then add acceleration.

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 08-31-17 at 08:22 AM.
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Go wide open to the turn, engage the front brake then pull the lever as hard as your hand can pull it. Down shift, let go of the brakes, turn the throttle, apex. While at the middle to end of apex twist the throttle as hard as possible. Get the front tire unloaded but pointed where you want. Just rip that bitch like that every turn, stop thinking and your balls will drop just like your lap times. Now that's just science

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    Lifer isaac_'s Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    So how do Rossi, Vinales, or Eric Wood get 2 things at once from a tire? do you know what squirm is? I wasn't looking for "pete" the local racer to water down the advice of a national champion, thanks though.
    You came on here asking for help to a problem. People have offered solutions and multiple ways to understand. You have not accepted that. Eric Wood gave you the answer to your problem. Accept it as fact and move on.

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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    Simplify.... You're crashing because you're asking the tires to do more than they're capable of doing. You're asking them to turn and accelerate at the same time. Do more turning earlier, stop turning so much, then accelerate.
    ask and you shall receive

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    Lifer tsorfas's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    So how do Rossi, Vinales, or Eric Wood get 2 things at once from a tire? do you know what squirm is? I wasn't looking for "pete" the local racer to water down the advice of a national champion, thanks though.
    very wrong perspective on the topic my friend. take a step back. Pete the local races happens to be fairly fast and be doing this for a while, sure he isnt Rossi but his advice is very simple yet, accurate and not at all watering down Eric's advice.
    Based on what you said it seems like you are still holding the bike down while the bike should be standing up. which means you havent finished your turn by the apex and you are still trying to turn while accelerating, which if you ask Eric will tell you is the guaranteed recipe for highsiding.

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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    So how do Rossi, Vinales, or Eric Wood get 2 things at once from a tire? do you know what squirm is? I wasn't looking for "pete" the local racer to water down the advice of a national champion, thanks though.
    Two words make a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    You're asking them to turn and accelerate at the same time. Do more turning earlier, stop turning so much, then accelerate.
    Crashing post apex indicates to me that you're doing too much turning post apex while at the same time trying to accelerate. Stop trying to do so much of those two things at the same time. Or, like I said before, get the bike pointed through the turn earlier, stand it up sooner.

    ... But I'm no Rossi, Vinales or Eric Wood so take my advice for what it's worth.

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 08-29-17 at 08:52 PM.
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    This also creates longitudinal force as the tire is plowed into the front of the bike and creates forward motion. When turned, gravity on the leaned bike creates latitudinal forces which are then countered by our longitudinal forces at speed to create a fake force that holds the motorcycle upright as both tires are plowed into the ground both sideways and forward with some pretty good friction....With the same latitudinal forces but more longitudinal forces the motorcycle will definitely want to stand up...?
    Can someone just essplain to me what he just said? So much latitudes and longitudes, I wasn't that good at geography in high school.

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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    I am not someone who does well not understanding what I'm doing and its pretty frustrating when the only advice people give you to "help" is to not think about it. Why does everyone get upset when people ask for facts? I come on here asking for someone to explain something complicated to me and it didn't seem like other people understand either and someone knowledgeable says don't worry about it. It does invalidate things a little bit and now we've got people saying you just need your balls to drop to ride a bike fast which is stupid because I saw 12 year olds that would smoke most of us last weekend, and getting mad at me for calling people out for complacency. Is what he said that offensive? No. But when someone respected discourages knowledge it breaks down all of us and I know hes a big deal to many people here. I still want to know why this happens and I think many people could be faster if they did, you will always improve with theory as well as practical application. There is no reason to discourage theory when some of the best practice is as simple as running tracks in you mind.

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    Member k1200s's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    Two words make a difference.



    Crashing post apex indicates to me that you're doing too much turning post apex while at the same time trying to accelerate. Stop trying to do so much of those two things at the same time. Or, like I said before, get the bike pointed through the turn earlier, stand it up sooner.

    ... But I'm no Rossi, Vinales or Eric Wood so take my advice for what it's worth.
    I do apologize, but I hope you can understand my perspective. The higher up you are the higher standard people hold you to and you were the kind of person I was hoping could explain it not degrade it. Maybe it is stupid, but explain to me why

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  16. #16
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    I am not someone who does well not understanding what I'm doing and its pretty frustrating when the only advice people give you to "help" is to not think about it. Why does everyone get upset when people ask for facts? I come on here asking for someone to explain something complicated to me and it didn't seem like other people understand either and someone knowledgeable says don't worry about it. It does invalidate things a little bit and now we've got people saying you just need your balls to drop to ride a bike fast which is stupid because I saw 12 year olds that would smoke most of us last weekend, and getting mad at me for calling people out for complacency. Is what he said that offensive? No. But when someone respected discourages knowledge it breaks down all of us and I know hes a big deal to many people here. I still want to know why this happens and I think many people could be faster if they did, you will always improve with theory as well as practical application. There is no reason to discourage theory when some of the best practice is as simple as running tracks in you mind.
    Hey man, you may want to try paragraphs. It is very hard to read and process your unbroken essays.

    I genuinely have no idea what you said in your OP. So much home made science in that post that its hard to even relate to what you are trying to dissect. Not trying to talk down to you, but none of us have ever heard of latitudinal and longitudinal forces combining to produce fake forces.

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    Last edited by xxaarraa; 08-29-17 at 09:02 PM.

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    What's updog? curiouser's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    So how do Rossi, Vinales, or Eric Wood get 2 things at once from a tire? do you know what squirm is?
    With the caveat that everything I say comes from my B-group pleb understanding, the above have the requisite seat time (and finely tuned suspension, chassis) to acutely feel traction at-lean. They can manage the squirm by 'listening' to the bike/tires and modulating with precise throttle inputs and lean angle adjustments. Granted, we're always told about how the small bikes are all about momentum, so maybe you're carrying too much speed for the corner, and as mentioned above, not doing enough turning before the apex - by definition, the part of the turn where you should be starting to "gas on, bike up", as opposed to holding the bike down.

    While not moto-specific, "The Traction Circle" explanation is de rigueur for track day instruction on two or four wheels and has helped me understand how inputs affect traction:
    Traction Circle - Explained - YouTube

    This article, written about the Penguin school, no less, seems to address this issue directly:

    If you ever find yourself putting in significant bar input after the apex of any corner that has any kind of meaningful acceleration on the exit (this is the key factor) Stop!
    This post apex bar input during acceleration is the single most common reason that newer riders fall down. The combination of acceleration (which un-weights the front tire) and turning is often enough to exceed the limits of traction of the front tire.
    As an aside, I appreciate reading these kinds of threads because hearing different explanations for these fundamental concepts helps my overthinking brain to grasp what should become second nature as speed increases.

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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    What I read in your OP was bunch of jambalaya about physics with very little specifics about the crashes themselves. What turn? Where specifically in the turn? What exactly were you doing with your inputs? I didn't see any of this (which is one of a few reasons why I simplified my response the way I did). This leads me to believe you're overcomplicating the issue thinking about the physics and not paying enough attention to what YOU are doing on the bike and what you are asking of your tires.

    I routinely see this when I'm instructing people who have reached a barrier in their riding that they're having difficulty overcoming... Frustration. LOTS of things going on in their head thinking about the bike but no self awareness. I spend the majority of our time working on getting the rider back to the BARE. BONES. BASICS. Simplify it. Be self aware. What are you doing? What is the bike doing? Lowest common denominator.

    What's the lowest common denominator here? You're asking the tires to do more than they can give you... from the sounds of it, you're still turning hard and trying to accelerate at the same time... that's gonna put you on the ground.

    Solution: Quicker turn initiation to get the bike pointed down track. Gradually apply throttle as you decrease lean.

    Or, come ride w/ me and we can work on it together.

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 08-29-17 at 09:16 PM.
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    What I'm saying is why cant I turn and accelerate the same as I turn and brake? There's plenty of corners that you get away with it. You always crash asking the tires to do more than they can but there's always something to play with, why cant it be steering and throttle off the line?

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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    You can. I'm not saying you can't. You're just asking too much of each at the same time.

    Again, quicker turn-in, get the bike pointed through the turn earlier, start standing it up sooner. If you keep crashing post apex then you're probably trying to keep turning the bike for longer than you should. And from your "if you're off line" then you're almost CERTAINLY trying to keep turning the bike longer than you should. Not only that, but you're probably on a dirtier part of the track which means you're going to have less traction out there.

    If you're at max lean you can't whack open the throttle. And vise versa, if you're at full throttle you can't just throw it to max lean. If you're already near or at the limits of traction you have to reduce one to add the other.

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 08-29-17 at 09:22 PM.
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    What's updog? curiouser's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    What I'm saying is why cant I turn and accelerate the same as I turn and brake? There's plenty of corners that you get away with it. You always crash asking the tires to do more than they can but there's always something to play with, why cant it be steering and throttle off the line?
    Weight transfer. During braking, you're putting weight on the tire that is doing most of the turning. Accel is opposite.

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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by curiouser View Post
    With the caveat that everything I say comes from my B-group pleb understanding, the above have the requisite seat time (and finely tuned suspension, chassis) to acutely feel traction at-lean. They can manage the squirm by 'listening' to the bike/tires and modulating with precise throttle inputs and lean angle adjustments. Granted, we're always told about how the small bikes are all about momentum, so maybe you're carrying too much speed for the corner, and as mentioned above, not doing enough turning before the apex - by definition, the part of the turn where you should be starting to "gas on, bike up", as opposed to holding the bike down.

    While not moto-specific, "The Traction Circle" explanation is de rigueur for track day instruction on two or four wheels and has helped me understand how inputs affect traction:
    Traction Circle - Explained - YouTube

    This article, written about the Penguin school, no less, seems to address this issue directly:



    As an aside, I appreciate reading these kinds of threads because hearing different explanations for these fundamental concepts helps my overthinking brain to grasp what should become second nature as speed increases.
    That is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about that you very much, that's an excellent article.

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    Senior Member Philkinson's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    What I'm saying is why cant I turn and accelerate the same as I turn and brake? There's plenty of corners that you get away with it. You always crash asking the tires to do more than they can but there's always something to play with, why cant it be steering and throttle off the line?
    Did you say what you're running for tires? Tire pressures?

    When are you turning the throttle on, Pre apex?
    Sorry, I didn't read the OP, I tried.

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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by OreoGaborio View Post
    You can. I'm not saying you can't. You're just asking too much of each at the same time.

    Again, get the bike pointed through the turn earlier, start standing it up sooner. If you keep crashing post apex then you're probably trying to keep turning the bike more than you should. And from your "if you're off line" then you're almost CERTAINLY trying to keep turning the bike more than you should. Not only that, but you're probably on a dirtier part of the track... you're probably going to have less traction out there.

    If you're at max lean you can't whack open the throttle. And vise versa, if you're at full throttle you can't just throw it to max lean. If you're already near or at the limits of traction you have to reduce one to add the other.
    Does the speed you are carrying effect the available grip at a given lean angle? Does more speed more a deeper lean with more grip? No smoothness could do a 60 degree lean angle at 30mph could it? what about a defensive line, wouldn't acceleration while turning be beneficial if you cant get on the gas as early?

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    Last edited by k1200s; 08-29-17 at 09:35 PM.

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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by Philkinson View Post
    Did you say what you're running for tires? Tire pressures?

    When are you turning the throttle on, Pre apex?
    Sorry, I didn't read the OP, I tried.

    Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk
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    I run dunlop Alpha 13's with 30 30 for now. I get the gas on pretty early, almost always pre apex unless I'm taking a defensive line, ideally.

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