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Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

  1. #26
    Senior Member Philkinson's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"


    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    I
    I run dunlop Alpha 13's with 30 30 for now. I get the gas on pretty early, almost always pre apex unless I'm taking a defensive line, ideally.
    Maybe this will help
    Throttle and Turn: The Lesser-Known Trap • Life at Lean

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  2. #27
    Member k1200s's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by Philkinson View Post
    Maybe this will help
    Throttle and Turn: The Lesser-Known Trap • Life at Lean

    Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk
    Thank you, honestly just understanding this will help make sure I don't overdo it again, that's all I'm looking for

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  3. #28
    Get Weird! maxim_X's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    Maybe its my phrasing but I'm getting nothing on Google and its like the only thing not explained Twist of the Wrist 2.
    Your phrasing is weird. You're adding steering input after the apex and that's a sure way to hit the dirt. In twist of the wrist I'm pretty sure Keith speak about this a bunch. Once you add throttle you need to either hold the turn on it's line (like 9 at nhms) or let the bike rise under you. It doesn't matter if your Rossi on a GP bike or on a scooter, if you are riding at pace and add throttle and steering input after an apex expect to get sent. in technical terms, your front wheel is weighted and has grip entering the turn on the brakes, as soon as you open the throttle you transfer weight to the rear, if you add a steering input to an unweighted tire its going to lose grip. I think this is probably the most common cause of a crash, especially for newer trackday riders or racers.

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    Member k1200s's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by maxim_X View Post
    Your phrasing is weird. You're adding steering input after the apex and that's a sure way to hit the dirt. In twist of the wrist I'm pretty sure Keith speak about this a bunch. Once you add throttle you need to either hold the turn on it's line (like 9 at nhms) or let the bike rise under you. It doesn't matter if your Rossi on a GP bike or on a scooter, if you are riding at pace and add throttle and steering input after an apex expect to get sent. in technical terms, your front wheel is weighted and has grip entering the turn on the brakes, as soon as you open the throttle you transfer weight to the rear, if you add a steering input to an unweighted tire its going to lose grip. I think this is probably the most common cause of a crash, especially for newer trackday riders or racers.
    Why does the bike squirm when your too liberal with the throttle but just fails instantly when you add steering ? Is it the lack of weight on the front ?

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  5. #30
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    Why does the bike squirm when your too liberal with the throttle but just fails instantly when you add steering ? Is it the lack of weight on the front ?
    Loss in rear traction vs loss in front. Yes, lack of weight on the front under acceleration means that tire has less traction than under braking when it is flattened, contact patch size increased, and has weight on it. You need to be not adding bar input (or braking!) in that circumstance and letting the bike stand up, exiting the corner.

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  6. #31
    Lifer snwbrdr435's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    I like what pete said earlier, don't over complicate everything.

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    Last edited by snwbrdr435; 08-30-17 at 07:31 AM.

  7. #32
    Resident Turkey Tricky Mike's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    I think there was too much longitude.
    Edit: Welcome to NESR. We bust balls. It's kind of a thing as the kids say.
    Edit V2.0: How tightly are you holding onto the bars? Are you actively steering the bike with a firm grip or are you barely holding on (like trying to hold a potato chip without breaking it) as you get on the gas and drive out f the corner? Sounds like you're getting on the gas, continuing to steer the bike with a tight grip on the bars.

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    Last edited by Tricky Mike; 08-30-17 at 07:35 AM.

  8. #33
    Lifetime Motorcyclist Woodcraft's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Having watched this fall (and a hundred more just like it) it's pretty simple to explain . Here it is what is going on.

    1. You actually carry decent roll speed, so there is a significant amount of load in the tire.
    2. You also use your arms throughout the whole corner - this is a common mistake that consumes grip and causes a loss of feel. Fixing this is the easiest way to improve your riding (most new track riders have this issue to some degree).
    3. The more weight on the tire the more grip it has. This is the main physics concept in play here.
    4. Your issue is maintaining bar pressure and arc (meaning the load on the tire stays the same) while you apply the gas - which reduces the amount of grip available.
    5. Physics says that if you take away front grip (adding throttle) you have to reduce load on the tire (by releasing bar pressure or opening up your arc) in order not to exceed available traction


    This happens most frequently in long corners. Turn 2 and Turn 6 at Loudon are the #1 culprits, and Turn 2 at Canaan (a 180 degree flat turn) is the most likely turn to get you at that track.

    Here is the fix - which many people here have already suggested.

    1) Make sure that you have got proper direction at the apex. If you can't stand the bike up - you don't have direction and need to take a step back and fix your turn-in.
    2) On little bikes, you can sometimes pick up the gas early and let the bike drift wider on the exit. However, bar input for the first 50 feet of the drive (no matter where it starts) is ALWAYS a no-no on any bike. If your inside shoulder and arm are not loose when you apply the gas, you will FOREVER have an issue with this until you fix it. FIX - tighten your core to allow your inside hand, arm and shoulder to relax.
    3) Always be sure you are using the correct control at the apex. This is your first self check to let you know if you're doing a corner right. In a corner that leads to a straight (like Canaan turn 2) you should be trying to use the gas as much as possible on the exit. This means your other two major controls (turning and braking) must be used as little as possible at that point. 100% - your issue comes from the timing of your bar input through and past the apex. In any corner that leads to the drive (which is 90% of them) this is going to be a cause of your problem.

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  9. #34
    Lifer nt650hawk's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    you want scientific....
    yes is car but the same
    http://<a href="https://www.youtube.... - YouTube</a>


    accelerating or braking while turning or not, if you exceed the traction circle the tires are sliding. there is always a give and take relation. if I give more throttle i have to take away lean angle. if I brake more i have to reduce lean angle.

    Another thing to think about. I see with riders not comfortable with getting to the outside of a turn. Getting comfortable with getting to outside of the exit/turn = less apt to have post apex anxiety to introduce extracurricular activities. This is often times vision and/or reference point deficiencies.

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    Gino
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    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    Why does the bike squirm when your too liberal with the throttle but just fails instantly when you add steering ? Is it the lack of weight on the front ?
    The bike will squirm* when you add steering as well...

    *I used the word "squirm" because you did... it doesn't really squirm, but the bike DOES tell you that you're approaching the limits of traction IF you're using good technique and know what to listen for. It feels kinda like power steering. You need to be in tune to what your bike is telling you.

    The BIG problem comes when you start adding lean angle AND throttle at the same time, which QUICKLY overloads the tire and makes it wash out with very little to no warning whatsoever.

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 08-30-17 at 09:01 AM.
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    Does the speed you are carrying effect the available grip at a given lean angle? Does more speed more a deeper lean with more grip? No smoothness could do a 60 degree lean angle at 30mph could it? what about a defensive line, wouldn't acceleration while turning be beneficial if you cant get on the gas as early?
    Sort of... not really... no... but yes. You're asking 20 questions all kinda rolled into one. Pick one question at a time and lets roll with it. Unfortunately most of these questions really require a face-to-face discussion to clarify otherwise we'll be writing novels here.

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 08-30-17 at 08:58 AM.
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    Lifer nt650hawk's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Squirm could/may be chassis flex .

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    Gino
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    Member k1200s's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    So, last question, I just wanna see if I'm connecting the right dots. All of you provided exactly what I needed, it does make sense now, thank you.

    In a downhill turn, you can be slightly more liberal with steering and throttle inputs than an uphill turn because the slope is weighting the front more and reducing the amount of transfer from the throttle. The opposite is true with braking. Is this correct?

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  14. #39
    Lifer nt650hawk's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    ? Cambered, Flat, or off camber turn? decreasing,opening or consistent radius, double apex turn.

    can do this all day long?

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    Last edited by nt650hawk; 08-30-17 at 09:44 AM.
    Gino
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by k1200s View Post
    So, last question, I just wanna see if I'm connecting the right dots. All of you provided exactly what I needed, it does make sense now, thank you.

    In a downhill turn, you can be slightly more liberal with steering and throttle inputs than an uphill turn because the slope is weighting the front more and reducing the amount of transfer from the throttle. The opposite is true with braking. Is this correct?
    If there's a difference, I would say that it's negligible. In a downhill corner you have gravity "accelerating" you down the hill... so a rider's instinct will likely be to over-brake mid-corner... which may lead to washing out the front. It would probably be best to scrub off a LITTLE bit more speed while more upright, then trail off the brakes a little earlier as you lean it in, then add a little positive throttle when possible. But I don't think you can accelerate HARDER in a downhill curve than you would in a flat one... you benefit from rearward weight transfer for rear end traction.

    But as Gino stated above, there are so many variables.

    Again, common theme in this thread: you're kinda overthinking. Wherever you are, whatever type of corner, stay relaxed in the arms, weight the pegs, feel the bike, listen to what it's telling you, learn the track and figure out what you can and can't get out of the bike.

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    Last edited by OreoGaborio; 08-31-17 at 05:08 PM.
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Brottle for the win!

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    Gino
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  17. #42
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    All these replies and nobody talking about mid-corner rear brake modulation? c'mon guys.....

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  18. #43
    First name on the shit list.... SVRACER01's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Would you increase lean angle and brake pressure?
    No.
    Why not?
    Because thats how you crash.
    You are essentially doing the same thing by increasing throttle without decreasing lean angle.

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  19. #44
    Lifetime Motorcyclist Woodcraft's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Adding bar input puts a direct side load into the rear tire. Every action has an equal an opposite reaction. In a right turn, you push on the RH bar to increase lean angle. This pushes the front tire (which trails the steering axis) to the right as well. This then translates to the rear of the bike by applying an equal and opposite (left) load to the rear tire. This also happens to be the same direction the the cornering forces are acting and it takes your "rubber band" of a rear tire and simultaneously consumes a bunch of the available grip you were using to drive forward and winds it up (flexes it) like an elastic. When drive force + cornering force + bad input from the handlebars exceeds available grip, the tire releases all that load like a slingshot and flicks you to the moon.

    Lesson here - never add bar input when driving. The Penguin saying is "Gas On, Bike Up"

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    Last edited by Woodcraft; 05-02-18 at 04:40 PM.

  20. #45
    Lifetime Motorcyclist Woodcraft's Avatar
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    Re: Post Apex Crashed - Explain "holding it down"

    Quote Originally Posted by scottieducati View Post
    All these replies and nobody talking about mid-corner rear brake modulation? c'mon guys.....
    That definitely helps with settling the chassis and with a little extra front grip - but unless it's completely natural (and almost automatic) then 99 out of 100 people have about 50 things that they can think about that will pay them bigger dividends. It's an interesting topic because most world level guys will tell you that they can't ride without the rear brake, yet you can set a track record a Loudon without ever touching it. It's definitely a next level skill - not to be discounted, but not actually needed for levels of riding up to and including winning CCS expert races.

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