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Price of trackdays

  1. #26
    Lifer
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    I'm curious. Are we comparing apples to oranges in other ways too.

    Is the track day provider being separate from the track owner thing prevalent outside of New England? Or is it more of a NYST model elsewhere?

    What about classroom/instruction. Is the level of classroom, instructor to rider ratios and such we see with TTD and Penguin true elsewhere? Or is it more of a "open lapping" free-for-all?

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  2. #27
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Always been more of a distance issue for me......I personally had been looking at doing a track day for years and the price never was an issue, just the locations and drive time..Now that Palmer and Thompson are open I am hooked and plan on doing every day they have at these places as they are close to me.

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  3. #28
    Lifer Ken C's Avatar
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Tracks out west are mostly bare-bones facilities in the middle of the desert where real estate prices and taxes are low. New England is a different story. Also, from what I've heard and experienced when riding with other organizations, there is virtually no instruction (or piss-poor attempts at instruction). So, you get more value in our area (if you're looking for instruction). For those looking for track time only, eliminating instruction from TTD events won't reduce the cost since staff volunteers their time to help people to ride better. They are a special breed.

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  4. #29
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken C View Post
    Tracks out west are mostly bare-bones facilities in the middle of the desert where real estate prices and taxes are low. New England is a different story. Also, from what I've heard and experienced when riding with other organizations, there is virtually no instruction (or piss-poor attempts at instruction). So, you get more value in our area (if you're looking for instruction). For those looking for track time only, eliminating instruction from TTD events won't reduce the cost since staff volunteers their time to help people to ride better. They are a special breed.
    So I have to play devils advocate on this one. What I just read is that riders essentially pay for the instruction, which is terrific by the way, but the instructors are volunteering their time? So... That extra 'instructional fee' has $0 cost to said organization?

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  5. #30
    Lifer Ken C's Avatar
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by Philkinson View Post
    So I have to play devils advocate on this one. What I just read is that riders essentially pay for the instruction, which is terrific by the way, but the instructors are volunteering their time? So... That extra 'instructional fee' has $0 cost to said organization?
    Nope. What I'm saying is the Your NOT paying for instruction...what you;re paying for is track rental fees, two ambulances and other overhead.

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  6. #31
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Now that i've done a track day, i cant complain..there are lot of people helping with these events... more often than not they are not walking away with wads of money.

    At the end of the day its a business they need to actually turn a profit to keep it worth it.

    250 to ride at a brand new track(palmer) in a well organized group with plenty of track time and awesome instructors... shit...i am a-okay with 250 price range... i agree, expensive...maybe...but its not like your going 5 track days a week...

    if more people did track days, the cost might be able to go down too... start recruiting people!

    i know ttd does a reward type thing for bringing new first timers (check their website and with tony , dont hold me to that) so there is a way to save some money.
    and you can bid on track days too.

    you can make them affordable, just gotta con new people into going with you and go bid on one!

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  7. #32
    Posting Freak Philkinson's Avatar
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by importcustomx View Post
    if more people did track days, the cost might be able to go down too... start recruiting people!

    you can make them affordable, just gotta con new people into going with you and go bid on one!
    If the cost went down, more people might do track days. I have been trying for years to get people to go with us, but its an awfully expensive hobby to convince someone into, especially when most street riders don't have track gear already.
    I'm remembering my days working in a liquor store that had higher prices than every store in the city.
    Example. The owner had some twisted idea that she needed to turn a $25 profit on each bottle of Grey Goose, even though we were $15 higher than any store in sight. So sure, one or twice a week someone would wander in and buy the bottle, and hooray, we made $50. But imagine how many bottles they're selling down the street at a $10 profit? Quantity my friends, quantity. I would rather sell 10 bottles at $10 profit than 2 at $25 profit. Just saying.

    Luckily, there is just about 0 competition in the track day market, so the prices are what they are for now.

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  8. #33
    Lifer Pittenger5's Avatar
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by Philkinson View Post
    If the cost went down, more people might do track days.
    But there's a finite number of space at each track day.
    If you were running it (and selling out events), would you rather make 50 dollars per rider, or 10 dollars, but run more dates? So you have to run 5x as many events to make the same profit?

    Of course, if dates stop filling up on a consistant basis, price would probably come down, but that's the free market for you.

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  9. #34

    Re: Price of trackdays

    Not to mention, making less profit per person and running many more events means more risk. (more chances to have rain dates or other issues that have the trackday provider losing money)

    Also, I believe that if you lower the price any significant amount... you will need to pack the track to be viable... and you will only have a short term solution.

    You may get some more initial attendance, but eventually the regular trackday riders will become unhappy with the events and stop riding or go elsewhere.

    EDIT: If there was some crazy profit amount currently being had, then yes... lowering the price some could help fill spots. (the vodka example above is irrelevant because there was a huge profit margin - relative to a bottle cost - that is just not present).

    If track rental costs came down significantly, then that will likely be passed on to the riders. However, I don't believe there is huge markup there either - so I doubt we'll see big drops.

    And with all the tracks now operating, I'm not sure a price drop would increase rentals... so you lower the price AND have no increase in rentals... which means you lose more money.

    Eventually, you'll have tracks shutting down... so less options for riders.

    As I've said before, this is a crazy time in the trackday business and things are changing quickly.

    I would caution people against thinking that lowering the price significantly is an easy fix. It may be a short term fix, but I believe it will ultimately have a negative impact on those that like to do trackdays regularly - and at a variety of tracks.

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    Last edited by TTD; 08-21-15 at 12:24 PM.
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  10. #35
    Senior Member Brendin87's Avatar
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    If you want cheaper trackdays become a full time coach. Like others have said, you have to pay your dues. You also have to make it look like you know what you're doing. There's a lot to it. You can't just go blow the owner of a trackday group or race track and expect to ride for free. DO WORK!!

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  11. #36
    Lifer backinthesaddle's Avatar
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittenger5 View Post
    but that's the free market for you.
    I thought this was the free market, a lot of people in a hurry to cash checks and pay utility bills:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Price of trackdays-freemkt-png  

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  12. #37
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by Brendin87 View Post
    You can't just go blow the owner of a trackday group or race track and expect to ride for free. DO WORK!!
    What?!? Damnit Tony, we had a deal!!

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  13. #38
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Not all cheap tracktime is good. I did a day in CA that was cheap, but we didn't get rolling till 11, then they broke for lunch and we got the privelege of watching the instructors rip on an empty track.
    Who put on the day?

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  14. #39
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken C View Post
    Tracks out west are mostly bare-bones facilities in the middle of the desert where real estate prices and taxes are low. New England is a different story. Also, from what I've heard and experienced when riding with other organizations, there is virtually no instruction (or piss-poor attempts at instruction). So, you get more value in our area (if you're looking for instruction). For those looking for track time only, eliminating instruction from TTD events won't reduce the cost since staff volunteers their time to help people to ride better. They are a special breed.
    I couldn't disagree more. Ken Hill was a free resource (control rider) when I attended trackdays out west. I had a completely opposite experience.

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  15. #40
    Lifer
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by TTD View Post
    (more chances to have rain dates or other issues that have the trackday provider losing money)
    You've lost me here. What is the correlation between how many TDs an org runs and the chance any of those days get rain?

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    Last edited by nhbubba; 08-22-15 at 08:04 AM.

  16. #41
    Lifer Chippertheripper's Avatar
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    RE: TTD: You may get some more initial attendance, but eventually the regular trackday riders will become unhappy with the events and stop riding or go elsewhere.


    Say what?

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  17. #42
    Soul Rider Paul_E_D's Avatar
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by cdovego View Post
    Who put on the day?
    Trackdaze I believe. Big Willow

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  18. #43

    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    You've lost me here. What is the correlation between how many TDs an org runs and the chance any of those days get rain?
    I assume you're trying to say that rain/sun is a coin flip and therefore how many times you flip it does not affect the odds of coming up Heads or Tails?

    I would argue that is not true.

    Regardless... My point in the statement was simply this. If you run lots of dates at a very low profit margin, and you have rain at one of the days... that one rain date could wipe out the profit of many of the other dates. (since the rental cost is many times the potential profit amount)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    RE: TTD: You may get some more initial attendance, but eventually the regular trackday riders will become unhappy with the events and stop riding or go elsewhere.

    Say what?
    Here is the full statement:
    ... I believe that if you lower the price any significant amount... you will need to pack the track to be viable... and you will only have a short term solution. You may get some more initial attendance, but eventually the regular trackday riders will become unhappy with the events and stop riding or go elsewhere.
    -----

    My point here is that the low price may get lots of first timers to try trackdays, but if you have to run a crowded track all the time to make each event profitable, then regular trackday riders will ultimately become dissatisfied. So instead of having a stable base of regular customers, you're always chasing the "first timer". Eventually, even at the low price you cannot sell enough spots to cover the track rental costs.

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  19. #44
    Lifer Ken C's Avatar
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    Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by cdovego View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. Ken Hill was a free resource (control rider) when I attended trackdays out west. I had a completely opposite experience.
    I'm glad to hear that. It's not been my experience at the TD events I've attended on the east coast where instruction was a second thought. I believe the bar had been raised so that some are now catching on to what successful TD orgs have been doing all along.

    Edit: I will also add that nothing is "free". Ken Hill is a professional instructor who gets paid somehow. It's either in the cost of your entry or a separate cost.

    TTD has free group instruction and limited personal instruction (3 or 4 laps per person... any more that that you should begin to expect to pay for personal one on one instruction). We can do this without increasing base entry costs because the staff are all volunteers whose return is the satisfaction of helping others as well as some personal track time. Full disclosure...as the lead instructor responsible for staff and curriculum development, hiring/firing, scheduling, promotion, graphic design and some marketing, I do get paid. But I share the pain with Tony, so I don't get anywhere near my full "profitable season" pay if we don't make a profit.

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    Last edited by Ken C; 08-22-15 at 10:20 AM.

  20. #45
    Lifer
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Do you actually see a loss on rain days?

    You'd have more rain days, clearly. But you'd have more sunny days too. I'd argue the ratio of rain/non-rain days remains roughly the same, regardless of how many days you schedule a year.

    My perception is that last minute signups (which are the only ones that could be effected by weather) are a small fraction of your business anyway. Your pricing already discourages waiting until the last minute. I thought this practice was pretty common. (AFAIK, all the TD orgs in this region do this.)

    My bottom line here is that weather is a non-factor-or at least a consistent factor-when it comes to pricing, costs, etc.

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    Last edited by nhbubba; 08-22-15 at 10:16 AM.

  21. #46
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_E_D View Post
    Trackdaze I believe. Big Willow
    Makes sense, go for Keigwins, Pacific Track Time (PTT) or Rickdiculous if you get another chance. They're all professional and well run.

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  22. #47
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken C View Post
    I'm glad to hear that. It's not been my experience at the TD events I've attended on the east coast where instruction was a second thought. I believe the bar had been raised so that some are now catching on to what successful TD orgs have been doing all along.

    Edit: I will also add that nothing is "free". Ken Hill is a professional instructor who gets paid somehow. It's either in the cost of your entry or a separate cost.

    TTD has free group instruction and limited personal instruction (3 or 4 laps per person... any more that that you should begin to expect to pay for personal one on one instruction). We can do this without increasing base entry costs because the staff are all volunteers whose return is the satisfaction of helping others as well as some personal track time. Full disclosure...as the lead instructor responsible for staff and curriculum development, hiring/firing, scheduling, promotion, graphic design and some marketing, I do get paid. But I share the pain with Tony, so I don't get anywhere near my full "profitable season" pay if we don't make a profit.
    I think you may find I know a lot more about this than you realize. Chat me up next time you come by LRRS.

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  23. #48

    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Do you actually see a loss on rain days?
    My bottom line here is that weather is a non-factor-or at least a consistent factor-when it comes to pricing, costs, etc.
    With fewer dates, they are more likely to sell out early and this helps overcome the rain factor.

    With many dates, they do not sell out early - so many people are waiting until the last minute to sign up... or not sign up... often based on weather.

    One low attendance event can wipe out all the other events. (financially)

    This is why having lots of dates, and making very little profit on each one, is not a good plan.

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  24. #49
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    I just want to clarify that I was not just referring to TTD, although their raised rate for palmer did factor in. $250 for basically a .8 mile go cart track that's not even finished was the other factor.

    I love how many options we have in the area now for tracks and understand that might actually hurt the cost of trackdays in that the field is more watered down for attendance at any one track because people have more options. You would think the owners of the tracks would also recognize how much competition there is in the area and adjust there fees to make it easier for td orgs to rent it.

    I guess I naively assumed more tracks would mean cheaper track time, not more expensive.

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  25. #50
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    Re: Price of trackdays

    Quote Originally Posted by sdog30 View Post
    $250 for basically a .8 mile go cart track that's not even finished was the other factor.
    What track is that?

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