question about braking before corners

[Doc]

This is pure wisdom here. Lots of riding experience and a great thought process rolled into a few paragraphs. Track riders would do very well to read and re-read this text.

Ya, just repeating what others have told me.

[Doc]

.... wat?
I think you mean prior to tip-in?

No, I think I meant getting out of the brakes before the Apex. Trailbraking to me means all the way to the apex, in it's purest form.

I don't like to think of it as trailbraking unless I am leaned over ALOT.

By the time I am that far over I want out of the brakes.

[Awesome]

Trail brake. Don't trail break.

Everyone should trail brake, the question is how far into the corner. The further in you're taking it the more risk you're running. If you're dropping the brakes before you tip, you're extending the suspension and slowing down your bikes ability to turn in, you're also causing the suspension to go down on the brakes, then up off of them, then back down throwing in, then back up as you get into the gas. It's not smooth which means not stable.

First thing you should learn around here is which advice to rely on, and who's repeating what they read in a book or overheard in the pits.

[TTD]

I agree with AWESOME... trailbraking just makes everything smoother.

Having said that, I believe Keith Code is pushing the no trail brake idea now. I believe he wants you to release the brakes as you do a hard tip in. With the concept being that the hard tip in will keep the suspension compressed.

It's interesting in theory, but I think it's a harder thing to accomplish. To time your braking to end exactly at the tip in point. I use the trailbraking area to "fine tune" my entry speed.

[OreoGaborio]

Trailbraking to me means all the way to the apex, in it's purest form.

Sounds like it means something slightly different to you than most people, which is going to lead to confusion. The simplest, most commonly accepted definition is braking while leaned. The further you lean, the more you "trail off" the brakes. Depending on the corner, one can set your cornerspeed prior to the apex and still do a significant amount of trail braking during corner entry.

Some people trail brake all the way TO the apex, some people don't. But those that don't trail brake all the way to the apex aren't NOT trail braking, they just aren't trail braking as deep.


If you look at Peter Kate's graph, you'll see that he spends very little time at his minimum speed... this is because he's slowing down all the way to the point at which he gets back on the throttle. THIS is the goal for most corners at loudon. Trail brake past tip-in all the way to the point at which you get back on the gas and minimize the time it takes to transition between the two.

[Doc]

Glad more seasoned peeps are chiming in.

So is trailbraking braking while leaned or trailing off the brakes while leaned?

Like in turn 3, you have hard straight up and down braking, then you start to lean and not apply more brake, then let off the brake smoothly and get back on the throttle.

[TTD]

Yes, that is trail braking. You start applying brakes while straight up and down... then slowly release the brake as lean angle increases.

[CBR929RE]

from tip in to apex you shouldn't be getting harder on the brakes. its a recipe for disaster. you trail off them the more you lean.

[Doc]

Yes, that is trail braking. You start applying brakes while straight up and down... then slowly release the brake as lean angle increases.

Ok, I guess I just don't consider it all that advanced until you are pushing it. I "trailbrake" but think I should be braking harder sooner so i don't have to trail brake.

I think that is where the confusion lies. Some may consider scrubbing off speed a form of trail braking. I have always thought it was used to allow you to enter a corner quicker than if you were not using it... Does that make sense?

[Chippertheripper]

It makes sense. I just can't figure out why you wouldn't want to enter that corner quicker every time.

[TTD]

I have always thought it was used to allow you to enter a corner quicker than if you were not using it... Does that make sense?

It allows you to get to the corner quicker... not enter it quicker.

If you don't trail brake, you must finish all your braking before starting to lean.

Assuming two riders are doing the exact same speed down the straight - and can brake identically - and can go past the apex at the same speed - then the rider that is going to trail brake can start braking later.

If he can start braking later, that means he is on the gas longer - and will arrive to the apex first.

[Awesome]

It allows you to get to the corner quicker... not enter it quicker.

If you don't trail brake, you must finish all your braking before starting to lean.

Assuming two riders are doing the exact same speed down the straight - and can brake identically - and can go past the apex at the same speed - then the rider that is going to trail brake can start braking later.

If he can start braking later, that means he is on the gas longer - and will arrive to the apex first.

In racing instances, this also means the trail braking rider can get in front and have position to lead through and out of the corner.

[Doc]

It allows you to get to the corner quicker... not enter it quicker.

If you don't trail brake, you must finish all your braking before starting to lean.

Assuming two riders are doing the exact same speed down the straight - and can brake identically - and can go past the apex at the same speed - then the rider that is going to trail brake can start braking later.

If he can start braking later, that means he is on the gas longer - and will arrive to the apex first.

But in less advanced instances or if it is not done correctly wouldn't it be counterintuitive?

[OreoGaborio]

Only if you tuck the front.

You can still trail brake and reap some of the benefits of it without braking excessively hard. A light drag of the front brake lever past your tip-in point is all it takes to keep the front suspension compressed a little bit and make the bike easier to steer, while at the same time help you achieve a higher entry speed.

I'm of the belief that just about any rider can safely trail brake a little... developing the feel and control to safely achieve SIGNIFICANT trail braking takes much more practice.

[Degsy]

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And it's BRAKING. Not breaking.

[OreoGaborio]

Thank you... I'll edit the thread title

[CBR929RE]

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And it's BRAKING. Not breaking.

welcome to post 28

[Woodcraft]

Lots of opinions and good info here....I'd like to spend more time on this sometime when I'm not on the road (like now). As some others have pointed out, if you're not trail braking, you have to get the speed slowed down sooner, which is definitely going to hurt lap times. I have some kind of input in the brakes (sometimes this is only 2-3%) all the way until I give it that big turn that perhaps Keith Code is referring to.

A lack of trail braking actually lets the bike move more and makes things feel a little vague. Again my brakes are released in unison with my biggest bar input (and corresponding slowest point of the turn) and rarely before. What many riders have not yet developed is the habit of actually making this big turn, which leads to spending the lowest % of time in a corner in the high risk zone. (in short, longer but smaller sustained turning input puts you at risk for more distance)

I'm out for now but I'm curious where these comments will drive this discussion. Have fun..I'll try to check back in a couple days.

[jeantarrou]

Great thread, subscribed!