Track riding improvement plans

[SVRACER01]

Interesting idea. What is it like rolling around the pits at slow speed? Just need to slip the clutch a bit?

ya, slip...coast...slip...coast..etc

[TTD]

I think you should buy it a bit. Every bike it going to "wiggle" at some point,

It's important to understand a "wallow / wiggle" that is coming from the bike flexing is different than one associated with tires moving around.

I am quite comfy with my tires doing things - not so much when it's my bike flexing. The only place I am noticing any bike flex on my bike is at the kink on the straight in Thompson. I pulled off around Turn 3 because I thought I had a flat tire!

Something about a hard steering input at 140mph that gets my bike wagging.

[Paul_E_D]

Sha! Wait til you see the video of my bike waggling down into t1 at thompson! I couldn't tell if my tires wer on the ground, sliding, or???

[Petorius]

Sha! Wait til you see the video of my bike waggling down into t1 at thompson! I couldn't tell if my tires wer on the ground, sliding, or???

From breaking the rear loose under braking or from hitting the seam of the pavement patch?

[Paul_E_D]

From accelerating through the kink.

[OreoGaborio]

lol... my EX500 slithered like a snake down the front straight at VIR. Was hilarious. Alex Dunstan pooped himself when he came up behind me.

My SV's chassis really corks up & unloads when flipping from T8 to T9 at NHMS.

[Dave603]

My SV's chassis really corks up & unloads when flipping from T8 to T9 at NHMS.

I get tank slap coming out of 7 and then a wiggle over 8 on my SV. Its not until the apex of 9 that everthing feels smooth again. But that was on my old suspension setup and havent been round the track since the gsxr swap :-(

[Petorius]

My plan for Friday at NHMS (Penguin):

Work on entry speed first. Brake at a consistent mark that does NOT stress you out. To raise you entry speed, brake normally for the first half of the zone, then ease out of the brakes as if you are already trail braking. Arrive at tip in faster and with 10% braking power on. tip it in quickly releasing the brake simultaneously. Fully off the brakes as you hit max lean angle with relaxed arms. Do this exercise until you entry speed is consistently higher. Then you can move your brake marker forward step by step without freaking out.

Will be doing this for T1 and T6. Secondary goals of fixing my grip on the throttle for right handers, and hitting transitions on the throttle/loose on the bars.

Goal for Sunday at Thompson- Dont be a puss when Paul is in my ear telling me to do scary things.

Monday at Thompson- TBD after Sunday.

[Paul_E_D]

My plan for Friday at NHMS (Penguin):


Goal for Sunday at Thompson- Dont be a puss when Paul is in my ear telling me to do scary things.

Monday at Thompson- TBD after Sunday.

Aw yeah!

[OreoGaborio]

I get tank slap coming out of 7 and then a wiggle over 8 on my SV. Its not until the apex of 9 that everthing feels smooth again. But that was on my old suspension setup and havent been round the track since the gsxr swap :-(

9 times out of 10 a bike wiggling through 7 and 8 is induced by steering input in the bars as the result of using your arms to pull yourself up and over the bike instead of your legs.

Also, if you watch my race videos (camera mounted on the front of the tank) you'll often see the chin bar of my helmet in the top right corner when I'm making the flip... that's because I'm getting my chest FORWARD over the tank while making the transition to keep the front end planted.

[loudbeard]

My plan for Friday at NHMS (Penguin):



Will be doing this for T1 and T6. Secondary goals of fixing my grip on the throttle for right handers, and hitting transitions on the throttle/loose on the bars.

Which group are you riding?

[Petorius]

Not sure how Penguin does groups. If its slow medium fast I should be in the middle at Loudon

[loudbeard]

Their Friday track days have 4 groups. "Track Experience," "Basic" (where you get race license,) "Advanced," and racer practice for Am/Ex.

You'll likely go in track experience, but I'd recommend doing the Basic group. IIRC, you don't HAVE to get your license, this is also the group novices practice in. The Track Experience group is painfully slow with lots of road blocks and conga lines to deal with, also the knowing that passing these folks at 3-4 times their pace might cause a few of their posterior regions to get a bit hurt.

[Paul_E_D]

A few words of caution, Pete. You can't learn everything at once. It may not be productive to overload yourself with education. Track skills are internalized on the track, not in the classroom. There's a balance to be struck between analyzing and just doing. Don't let the crush of info at Penguin overtake your simple improvement plan. Whether your hand is here or there, body position good or bad doesn't matter, you still have to find entry speed first and build from there. Step by step.

We learn starting motorskills from gross to fine. The progression takes years and thousands of laps. Don't sweat the small stuff...yet.

[Dave603]

9 times out of 10 a bike wiggling through 7 and 8 is induced by steering input in the bars as the result of using your arms to pull yourself up and over the bike instead of your legs.

Also, if you watch my race videos (camera mounted on the front of the tank) you'll often see the chin bar of my helmet in the top right corner when I'm making the flip... that's because I'm getting my chest FORWARD over the tank while making the transition to keep the front end planted.

My first TD the same thing would happen coming over turn 5 as well until someone explained what you just did. (It couldve been you for all I remember lol) Since then 5 has never given me any issues but 7/8 I still get some wiggles even when being mindful of my forward weight. The wiggle only gets worse as I begin to tire out in a session but i expect with my new setup/finally having a damper on the front will help things a lot. Oddly though the wiggles never scared me and i never felt the need to chop the throttle because of it.

[Tas]

Their Friday track days have 4 groups. "Track Experience," "Basic" (where you get race license,) "Advanced," and racer practice for Am/Ex.

You'll likely go in track experience, but I'd recommend doing the Basic group. IIRC, you don't HAVE to get your license, this is also the group novices practice in. The Track Experience group is painfully slow with lots of road blocks and conga lines to deal with, also the knowing that passing these folks at 3-4 times their pace might cause a few of their posterior regions to get a bit hurt.

Pete, I did the track experience group July 25th and there are a good share of slower riders. However, not that I'm the fastest one out there but I worked on passing these riders at a slower and more safe environment. Kind of working on "race craft". Judging riders tendencies and how fast/slow they were coming out of turns and making my pass. It was fun.

Could tell which riders were "fast" on the streets as I could catch them in the turns but with their higher HP bikes they would pass me down the front stretch. Kind of a back and forth thing for the most part although they were fast in the straights I normally did not see them again as I could gap them from turn 3 to turn 12.

[Dave603]

But remembering to use legs vs arms to help climb over the tank is hugeee and is most likely causing that like you pointed out.

[loudbeard]

Pete, I did the track experience group July 25th and there are a good share of slower riders. However, not that I'm the fastest one out there but I worked on passing these riders at a slower and more safe environment. Kind of working on "race craft". Judging riders tendencies and how fast/slow they were coming out of turns and making my pass. It was fun.

Could tell which riders were "fast" on the streets as I could catch them in the turns but with their higher HP bikes they would pass me down the front stretch. Kind of a back and forth thing for the most part although they were fast in the straights I normally did not see them again as I could gap them from turn 3 to turn 12.

I also rode in the group, nice. From what I saw at NYST, Pete is pretty quick. The problem in the TE group isn't flying down the straights, it's carrying much higher corner speed. I've found riders tend to get spooked a lot more when they're passed in a corner where they uncomfortable. Frequently in the TE group you find groups of 3 or more riders stacked up which compounds the problem.

I agree there is something to be learned in regards to passing in a group like this, but not a lot.

[nhbubba]

Pete, I did the track experience group July 25th and there are a good share of slower riders. However, not that I'm the fastest one out there but I worked on passing these riders at a slower and more safe environment. Kind of working on "race craft". Judging riders tendencies and how fast/slow they were coming out of turns and making my pass. It was fun.

I agree with this front to back. Especially the "fun" part. I've done 2 Penguin TE's and am about to do my 3rd. I always leave with a smile. (Even when I went ass over tea kettle in T2.)

My MO is to hang back in the morning and early afternoon sessions. Let stuff happen in the earlier sessions. Work on line, body position, throttle and brake handling. Then start to crank it up in the afternoon. For some reason Penguin TE's start to thin out late in the day. Then you can hammer. Also, passing rules are more liberal than with some other events.

Actually, this is my MO for all track days. And it should be for everyone's I think. Why throw the day away to a silly mistake while pushing things early in the day? Why not chill, then hang it out in the afternoon? If you fubar it in the morning, your day is done. If you fubar it in the afternoon, less lost.

One problem is that people tend to learn a lot at Penguin TE's. That easily spooked street noob street rider in the AM often turns into wholey-hell on two wheels by afternoon.

I've turned some of my most exciting laps at NHMS @ a Penguin TE day.

[Dave603]

If you fubar it in the morning, your day is done.

unless you bring 2 bikes or Myles at S&C has your broken parts in stock it felt like I bought practically half a bike in parts from him when i took the 2 day penguin school.. I think it was Degsy who told me I could only crash once a day and i took it literally LOL

[nhbubba]

I'm older and fatter and in worse shape than most of you. If I chuck a bike bad enough to need to wave my credit card at Miles that much, then my day weekend is done.

Moral remains: Save the rompin' for the afternoon and you'll not be disappointed.

[loudbeard]

My MO is to hang back in the morning and early afternoon sessions. Let stuff happen in the earlier sessions. Work on line, body position, throttle and brake handling. Then start to crank it up in the afternoon. For some reason Penguin TE's start to thin out late in the day. Then you can hammer. Also, passing rules are more liberal than with some other events.

Actually, this is my MO for all track days. And it should be for everyone's I think. Why throw the day away to a silly mistake while pushing things early in the day? Why not chill, then hang it out in the afternoon? If you fubar it in the morning, your day is done. If you fubar it in the afternoon, less lost.

This line of thinking I wholeheartedly disagree with. The idea of going out for a session to "work on body position and take it easy" is basically junk. Proper body position, provided you understand what the inputs mean, is intuitive and more importantly it's facilitated by speed. The faster you execute a corner the better your body position has to be, so by going out and running at 65% you're doing yourself a disservice and allowing yourself to get lazy. I'm not trying to say my BP is perfect, after studying film from my last session I see there are a couple of things I'd like to tweak next time out.

I very much agree with what Tony said in regards to taking it easy down the front straight and giving yourself some time to analyze the previous lap.

As with any sport I've ever participated in, I've never gotten better by taking it easy at practice. Your limit is where you learn, not where you're comfortable. I have 2 sections of the track that I CONTINUALLY get frustrated at as soon as I complete them because I know they're much faster than I'm riding them. From 1A through 2, my drive out is so weak and I honestly just feel like I need to let my nuts drop here. Same with 9 and 10.

[Dave603]

its hard to have a good drive through 1a and out of 2 if you don't have good entrance speed into 1. 1A is almost entirely maintaining roll speed. 2 is a lot like 12. the harder you twist the throttle the straighter the bike should be. Flipping the bike into 2 with more initial lean angle also lets you get on the gas a lot sooner. Just focus on Turn 1 and you'll find you will come out of 2 with more speed. I focused on that section for an entire day one TD.

And i knew when I was getting faster through that section because before i would hit the rev limiter right at the first braking cone into 3 and as the day progressed i was hitting the rev limiter in that same gear when I was next to the wall. So then led me to my next dilemma. To chop the throttle and try to brake later or to make a quick up shift followed by a quick burst as I cross back over the nascar oval and then have an additional gear to navigate going into 3. I think the ultimate solution will be tweaking gear ratios

[Petorius]

My hips lock up by the end of the day, so I like to do the opposite of Colin and go easier for the last two sessions. I make more sketchy mistakes when I'm too stiff to move and trying to go 95%. As for body position, I dont find it easier to work on one way or the other. If I go too slow while I'm leaning off, my bike gets "sucked in" in a few spots at NYST (apex of 10 either direction, apex of 6 downtown). I put my rear tire off the edge of 10 at NYST once due to this effect. The thing will just fall into corners when I let go of my pre-turn counter-steering when I am going slow.

I won an auction for the Penguin spot, so I think I can only do the track experience.

[nhbubba]

I won an auction for the Penguin spot, so I think I can only do the track experience.

That is correct. You'll have no choice but to share the track with slowpokes.

Sounds like you need to figure out a way to make it through the day without the hip lock business. Being spent before the end of the day is no good.