Using Your Own Bike at a TD

[Cerberus]

I couldnt possibly disagree more. Especially in emergency situations, the fact you know the bike can do probably 100% more than you give it credit for, or more than you knew it could before, can make a huge difference.

a huge difference to what?

i expected that one to raise some feathers, and in hindsight should included the 'except in emergency situations' exception.

none the less, i stand by what i said.

[Pittenger5]

and in hindsight should included the 'except in emergency situations' exception.

none the less, i stand by what i said.

So the track isnt worth it if you ride following speed limits, and emergency situations mean nothing?
I dont get your point in the least. The discussion is why people dont bring their street bike to the track, most of us argue for bringing it to the track (since we are mainly track riders and find it tough to see the other side now) not just to push limits, but to help find them in a more extreme situation, which directly translates to being a better and safer street rider.
So I dont see why we should exclude emergency situations.

[eboos]

I understand that accidents do happen and on the road my insurance will cover it, but not on the track, thats my biggest concern next to someone else taking me out.

Fortunately, trackday rules go a long way to prevent this from happening. Trackday riders are broken up into different groups based on track riding experience and proficiency. Most organizations prohibit passing on the inside of a corner, which will really help prevent getting taken out by another rider. Depending on which group you are in, there may be more restrictions. Plus there will be control riders and corner workers out there making sure that there isn't anyone acting like an ass or needing extra guidence.

My other concern is that it will, like for many of you, become an awesome addiction.

I never would have thought I would be where I am here today. I no longer need to worry about crashing my street bike, because I no longer have a street bike. I only ride on the track now. Addiction? Hell yeah! Though this addiction, I have had the time of my life. Every outing is an adventure for both me and my family. I have met and made friends with a crap load of people. I have realized many opportunities that I never would have thought possible. Not bad for starting off with a $250 trackday.

[Cerberus]

So the track isnt worth it if you ride following speed limits, and emergency situations mean nothing?
I dont get your point in the least. The discussion is why people dont bring their street bike to the track, most of us argue for bringing it to the track (since we are mainly track riders and find it tough to see the other side now) not just to push limits, but to help find them in a more extreme situation, which directly translates to being a better and safer street rider.
So I dont see why we should exclude emergency situations.

fair point.
i've just come back from the buffet and am feeling punchy.. ill-equipped to debate anything.. so lets just say i have no point and leave it at that?

[Mr. Kurtz]

but the point in going to the track is a combination of having fun and developing skills that (almost) never get utilized on the street, ie, riding on the ragged edge.

The first time I ever rode on the highway, I was on the ragged edge at 55MPH in the slow lane. 20 exits later, I was probably at about 75% of my combined mental and physical motorcycle riding skill doing the same thing. Now, doing 55MPH in the slow lane probably uses about 2% of my total motorcycling skill set. If a car cut in front of me back then, I might have been in trouble, now, much less risk of an issue.

Before doing a trackday, riding down my favorite road at the speed limit might have taken 75% of my abilities, now, maybe 25%. That gives a much larger safety margin if/when something unexpected goes wrong.

The point in having car insurance is to protect you from something that (almost) never goes wrong. Yet, not many argue against it.

Back on topic, honing your riding skills in any way will make you a better, safer rider, but I think doing it on your own bike is the best way. Many people(imo) who use not wanting to damage their bike at the track as an excuse are doing just that, making excuses. Remove that one, another will come.

[xsiliconkid]

Why are people so afraid to use their street bike at a trackday? This is just a general observation, and an interesting winter topic. Thoughts?

YES! There's a lack of knowledge and much misconception re: what track-days are all about. We who ride tracks can do our bit to educate.

I talk to many street riders about considering taking their bike and body to a "racetrack". I mention, "at every track event there’s always many new riders and emphasize 4 points to those new to track day events".

1. Go slow learning the track --> get the flow
2. Resist exceeding your "personal" comfort level --> control panic
3. At no time should you feel out of control
4. Increase speed incrementally

I have found these 4 points help those about to go out on the track for the first time. With street riders, starts an interesting conversation. Resets a lot of expectations.

[Doc]

Graham was an AWESOME 1st trackday instructor btw.

[palanon]

I thought he was too. Even if he's a tard rider now. :>)

[xsiliconkid]

Graham was an AWESOME 1st trackday instructor btw.

ah shucks....that's because I can just keep up with 1st timers.........

[xsiliconkid]

I thought he was too. Even if he's a tard rider now. :>)

OK...that's it...the Aprilia RSVR comes out of hiding in '09 the big twin...

[union]

After seeing the way many people ride on the street its a hell of a lot safer for them on the track.

I can understand why they would be apprehensive at first about riding their bike on the race track. Even though its just a track day to them its still a race track that is full of Rossis and Stoners. Out on the street with their buddies they are heros but once they sign up for that track day they are just another rider with less track experience then many that will be there.

I remember my first day and how nervious I was. Luckily I had Kates to yell at me all day The best thing that happened was the first session where we took it really slow for a few laps and then came back in. I think just getting onto the surface takes away a lot of the nerviousness.

Ive heard a ton of newer riders say that they want to do a day but they are afraid to crash their bike. I always tell them on their first day just go out there, take it easy and you can go a slow as you want. Ask Chuck he was one of those

I do get a chuckle out of it sometimes. I do understand not wanting to crash your bike. Some just accept the risk a little better then others and go for it. I told Kates this is the reason I can never have a collectable bike. The first thing that goes through my mind is how fast of a lap can I do with it

[The Snowman]

Ive heard a ton of newer riders say that they want to do a day but they are afraid to crash their bike. I always tell them on their first day just go out there, take it easy and you can go a slow as you want. Ask Chuck he was one of those

Yes, I was apprehensive about crashing my nice 12 year old bike, but realized that I'm just as much at risk riding on the street.

I didn't push my limits on the track and had such a blast that I am buying a track-only bike to be able to push myself better with. As long as you stay within that "80% of your ability" threshold, you'll be fine.

If you don't push yourself too hard, you'll have a great time and the risk of dumping the bike is very minimal.

[Doc]

ah shucks....that's because I can just keep up with 1st timers.........

Oh yeah... funny as hell watching you on that tard passing me on the outside of one, looking back, tapping your tail and telling me to follow you...

The slowing enough to keep me in sight for a couple laps (especially the line through 8-9)

[Doc]

I do get a chuckle out of it sometimes. I do understand not wanting to crash your bike. Some just accept the risk a little better then others and go for it. I told Kates this is the reason I can never have a collectable bike. The first thing that goes through my mind is how fast of a lap can I do with it

Hell I got the 998.. my DREAM bike and promptly put it on the track. It was even raining!


(Not that it was my first choice but the Hawk was blowing a head gasket and the show must go on!)

[xsiliconkid]

[QUOTE=97BladeRider;643639]
Yes, I was apprehensive about crashing my nice 12 year old bike, but realized that I'm just as much at risk riding on the street.
QUOTE]
Odds have it - MORE at risk on the street


[Quote= I didn't push my limits on the track and had such a blast If you don't push yourself too hard, you'll have a great time and the risk of dumping the bike is very minimal.QUOTE]
More likely to crash on the street!

Q So why do some people crash on the track....?
A. It is simple, you state it above, "push limits to early". (Back to my earlier comments - "don't ride over your ability ")

One of the key focuses of track day staff (Instructors, control riders, professional corner workers etc.) is to spot behavior that has shown us over the years will result in potential crashes if not corrected.

I know a few people even on this forum have had the talk, "if you continue the behavior of ______ (typically some bad habit) you will most likely crash, here's what you need to do.......”. Most listen but sometimes not. There are a couple of people on NESR that did not accept the feedback and guess what.. Come on hands up ......

If you’re still with me, let me philosophize for a moment.... In the early days of becoming a more competent track and hence street rider you and your bike will probably do something you have not experienced before (bike move around- come in too hot to a turn etc...) if you are no riding too far out your comfort zone it can typically be saved and you continue on….hence the statement, “Control panic -->resist exceeding your personal comfort level".
Once you become a competent, relaxed, fast track rider – bike, body or mind errors that would have had you in a panic and potentially crash – are nothing – don’t even register as an issue, hence the, “increase speed incrementally”.

Those of us that race notice two key things.
1. Our fastest laps are generally the ones where we thought we were going slow.
2. Our focus and mind is not on what to do to get around the track (that is all background processing). This leaves plenty of brain cycles to handle the expectations that always come up…( I am way to wide, my braking is late etc etc …)

So, if we drop off our "race pace" even by just a couple of tenths a second - it feels slow and it's easy to sit up and look around...we then wonder why it was so had to get the 2/10th's of a second in the first place :-)(that is another story)
The point is, Instructors running your pace - can look around and easily spot potential problems as well as expand upon what you are doing correct... That's why it's importing one key attribute in an Instructors background is their race pace lap times exceed the fasted track day rider.
QED

[RyanNicholson]

I'm going to agree with everything Graham said above... He just explained, in detail, WHY you shouldn't worry about taking your street bike on the track. Even if you're still paying it off....insurance companies (correct me if I'm wrong) look at TD's not as races but as rider improvement programs. Which is precisely what they are, and why timing systems aren't allowed.

Anyways, good discussion

[Pittenger5]

Even if you're still paying it off....insurance companies (correct me if I'm wrong) look at TD's not as races but as rider improvement programs.

Before anyone finds out the hard way, I've heard a number of stories where insurance companies arent buying this excuse anymore, so if people are that concerned double check with their insurance company first. And stress its a NON-TIMED, NON-COMPETITIVE skills learning situation.

[RyanNicholson]

Before anyone finds out the hard way, I've heard a number of stories where insurance companies arent buying this excuse anymore, so if people are that concerned double check with their insurance company first. And street its a NON-TIMED, NON-COMPETITIVE skills learning situation.

yea good call...

[seth399]

I wasn't worried about taking my 636 to penguin at all but I would have been reluctant to race it the next day (luckily I had a buddy loan me a racebike). I knew from the get-go I was going to penguin to LEARN and not be the new hotshot retard. I am very comfortable with racing offroad so that helped as well I think but it all comes down to the mentality of the new track rider and what category they fall into.

rider 1- I'm here to learn as much as I can and have fun
rider 2- I'm here to beat everyones ass (crash)
rider 3- where am I???

The other thing I noticed a few sessions in was how bad my streetbike was setup for 'racing', so I would have been reluctant to do more trackdays with it cuz I would have ended up wanting to convert it to a full on racebike ehe

[eboos]

I was rider 3 on my first trackday.

[daviid]

I'm going to agree with everything Graham said above... He just explained, in detail, WHY you shouldn't worry about taking your street bike on the track. Even if you're still paying it off....insurance companies (correct me if I'm wrong) look at TD's not as races but as rider improvement programs. Which is precisely what they are, and why timing systems aren't allowed.

Anyways, good discussion

the no laptimer thing seems to be a loudon thing. Every other track day ive done you will see 12 beacons out on the wall. In dealing with a track im renting next year, ive asked the president of the track reguarding lap timers. Laptimers in terms of recording personal best laps are fine. Transponders in terms of recording positioning, constitutes a race and brings you into different insurance catergories

[seth399]

I was rider 3 on my first trackday.

haha me too on saturday/raceday, a dude infront of me put up his arm and slowed down and I assumed there was a wreck, then sped up almost a lap later when I realized there were no flags out.

[xsiliconkid]

....insurance companies (correct me if I'm wrong) look at TD's not as races but as rider improvement programs. Which is precisely what they are, and why timing systems aren't allowed.

Anyways, good discussion

Wrong.... in the last couple of years -insurance companies are wise to track events - they will have in the fine print... excluded "closed course activity".... this is not to say you shouldn't try
....good discussion...
also I spelt out the details on new folk to track events - as I hope there are folks lurking - who are on the fence and unsure about track day details...

[xsiliconkid]

the no laptimer thing seems to be a loudon thing. Every other track day ive done you will see 12 beacons out on the wall. In dealing with a track im renting next year, ive asked the president of the track reguarding lap timers. Laptimers in terms of recording personal best laps are fine. Transponders in terms of recording positioning, constitutes a race and brings you into different insurance catergories

Why doesn't just "anyone" rent a race track for the day...? It's expensive and I don't mean just renting the track?
In dealing with tracks you need your own liability insurance for closed course activity - without it ,you and everyone "involved" in running the event are exposed. Tracks are now asking to site coverage letters (to protect the track owner(s) - then you need to check if the liability insurance covers timed events.... having it just silent on this point is not the right answer. Everything is fine until there is trouble - Your insurance company will abandon you if closed course activity is not covered etc....

Question-guess why tracks like NHMS call their open practice sessions, set-up or suspension days and don't offer timing?
Answer-Their own insurance would increase for that day.

[ThisBitch]

There are about 230984129784239817234901748917234897 other threads with this same debate.

I didn't want to take my pretty new bike to the track. I wasn't afraid I would push too hard, I was afraid someone else would do something stupid and I would crash. Same thing with riding on the street. Its not my ability I'm worried about, its everyone around me.

Although it can be argued that the track is "safer" because there are no cars and everyone's going in the same direction, things happen much more quickly on the track, especially with a bunch of new riders. It takes time to learn the line and be predictable. On the street, there are lines. Cars are almost as wide as their lanes, so there's only so much they can do. On the track, the story is much different. People do all sorts of crazy things and there's more room for someone to make a sudden move that could cause "conflict." I'm just saying that including the miles I did this weekend, I'm just shy of 17k on the street with 1 "accident" which happened the first day I learned to ride my bike. I made it 2.2 sessions before crashing on the track.

That said, I learned more in 2 days about my bike, my ability and my bike's ability than ever before. I also learned a lot watching PK and some of the VT boys tear my bike apart and put it back together. Riding a motorcycle is expensive. I didn't plan to spend $200 that weekend on new clipons, but it happens. No one wants to crash or intends to crash, but it does happen and it happens more frequently on the track than on the street.