Who What When Where

[nhbubba]

We tell people this all the time... it's great to hear some riders actually get it!

Yes. I tried to convey this to Graham at the end of the day, but don't think I did a very good job of it.

Not to muddy up this thread, but going faster than others in the RED group is not an automatic reason to move to YELLOW (Intermediate).

Since we went there.. this has been on my mind, even since my day last summer.

I hate passing. I can pass, but I do not feel entirely safe doing it. Since I don't have eyes in the back of my head (and you took away my mirrors!) it is very difficult for me to judge 'safe' anyway. Nobody talked to me or called me nasty names, so I assume I did okay.

I feel at a disadvantage being on a 650 with maybe 65 HP between my legs. Whenever we got to the passing zones I was left in the dust and then caught right up with everyone right at the next turn. I actually muttered "WTF" once or twice when everyone was braking and I knew I could go later or harder. I did what the instructors suggested and pitted in and back out only to find myself tangled up in another pack.

I remember one instance in particular where I did everything I could to set up a bike that probably has 3x the power mine did on T12. I swear I got a front wheel on him just to see the other rider look over at me and VANISH as he popped that throttle open. (I actually found it pretty funny and tell the story all the time!)

Maybe this is normal for a 1st timer after day 1. But I have honestly NO IDEA how you successfully pass a 100-something HP liter bike on a middle weight ANYWHERE at NHMS within red-group rules. Sure, I could probably outbrake or out corner in T3 or 6 or something, but that's not allowed. You are required to complete the pass before the braking zone. (PS: I think I bent that rule once!)

Any/every rider on a 'real' sport bike can gun it on the straights and leave me in their dust. I feel completely powerless to do anything about it.

Meanwhile I have no qualms about being passed.

It seems like the pace would be better in yellow and more conducive to learning to ride faster in the corners (my personal goal). Getting passed all day on the straight is less of an issue if the guys your being passed with aren't going to park it in the next turn. I would much rather be at the back of a pack of faster riders than at the front of the pack of slower ones.

I will, of course, defer to experience. But it seems to me that being able to be safely passed is a more important skill for riding in a faster group than being able to pass.

Maybe I just don't understand the passing rules?
Maybe I just don't understand how to pass properly?
Maybe I am just not comfortable passing?

Maybe this is what you're getting at.

Looking forward to learning the answers to these Q's.

[TTD]

The best place for smaller bikes to pass big HP bikes is on the brakes. You don't have to finish the pass before the braking zone... you just have to finish it before the tip in point.

Turn 1 and Turn 6 (bowl) are the easiest to pass people on the brakes in RED group.

Turn 3 is a little riskier, but we are going to extend that passing area so you can pass very early in the braking zone there too.

The other thing you need to learn is to come out of the corner at your speed so you come past the other rider. It is then their responsibility to not outdrive you. If they do that, please let your CR or Instructor know so they can address it.

Check out some of the videos, especially of Ken and I. Usually they are in faster groups, but the passes themselves are usually in areas RED can pass too.

Next year, we'll make a special video using low HP bikes (or maybe one of the staffers has a good one already?)

[nhbubba]

I think I hear what you are saying re: corner speed. I know I had a tendency to ride up everyone's ass throughout the corners. I am sure that did not do anyone (least of me) any good.

I probably need to do a better job planning those passes and it sounds like I should be initiating those plans well before I even tip into the corner before the passing zone... not while exiting said corner.

I think I also need another track walk. Your illustrations are helpful, but only to a point.

Stuff to work on. Shweeet!

Where's spring...

Anyway, enough thread crapping for today.

[DucDave]

BOMO runs a great 'Intro To Track Day's' program...excellent way to start with 3 students to each instructor!

...self serving? Yep! But it's true too...!!!

[TTD]

As a first time track rider, I'm sure the OP is absorbing this stuff too!

But yes... smaller HP bikes have to plan their passes even better. As you said, following someone through the corner is the worst thing - as you reduce your speed to theirs and then they out horsepower you coming out.

If you time it right and exit just behind them - but going your speed instead of theirs - then you should be able pull along side them (at which point they are NOT supposed to out horsepower you).

And if you are the high horsepower bike, remember that the smaller bike is attempting to make a nice clean pass on you as you exit the corner. Let them go and you can probably learn something from them. I'm sure you didn't pay $200 to learn how to twist the throttle down the straight, right?

[nt650hawk]

Yes. I tried to convey this to Graham at the end of the day, but don't think I did a very good job of it.

You should try in on 50hp bike...

What advantages can a smaller lighter bike have over a heavier jet fuel bike?

Think advantages..... And build upon that.

Corner speed, roll-on application (Pssst….Less HP =benefit, MORE HP riders tend to be gun shy) and braking later. There is really only one advantage that they have to your 3. It is in how you use those tools to gets the better of them. And is it all about setting up the pass and that is why there are a lot of trains happening on the track. Patience is a virtue that a LOT of people tend to forget

Say similar bike....Can you be right on the back of rider and get around easily. No. You especially cannot do it with someone with more hp.

If you have 5 -10 more MPH than any of the above you already have a huge advantage than just HP. How do you do this? SET it up = Back off the rider, and give yourself distance to put your strategy into play. First you need to gauge the rider in front. This may take some time with evenly matched level riders but it is something I have always worked on. Sizing up the competition . I mean participants....
How do you do it? Simple. Back off and set up the exit with confidents.

First you need to know what turn benefits you more than the others riders ability to make the easy pass. You can build this up over time with more and more experience.

Buy backing off you have more vision to see your RP instead of checking up on the rider right in front of you. This is soothing and you will be more confident in what you will be setting up. You can ride you own ride and not the rider in front.

Question. Can 2 riders occupy the cam space? yes and no, but I prefer NO.

Most riders on the track can be somewhat predictable. The other Hell, I'll even stay away from them.... You have to judge what their line is going to be. Refer to my question. Can you expect to maintain your momentum if you are riding the same line as the rider in front? NO, you will be checking up and killing what you have created = you fail please try again. That is the great thing about track days....you get to try different things over and over Or, Rinse and Repeat... You'll need to come up with an alternate line (we are talking on the exit of a turn here) where you can maintain your momentum without interruption and continue your drive. If they go low you go high kind of mentality. But the goal/trick to all of this is your timing on the exit. T2 is an easy example. I can usually get a lot of my passing completed by the second set of nascar lane markers. HOW? I had created enough of a gap way back in T1. I then commit to building up my speed/momentum and begin my passing on the outside at the apex of T2. If I'm off a little I still have some advantage over the other rider because now they have to come up to the pace I have created and they are not going to pull away as easily as if we were to drag race from a dead stop. (Side note…. Just got back from Key West... I had to reiterate to my parents that the signs for a drag show WAS NOT A DRAG RACE.. Sorry). This can take time to develop. I like to say that anything on the track is like a chess match. You need to be a couple of moves ahead of your competitor. AND it is relation of 7 0 rider- 30 Bike or 80Rider -20 bike.

Don't feel frustrated in attempts. Frustrations lead to not smooth, forced, uncalculated attempts= scary. I do applaud you for pitting in. This helps to reset things. I do it myself. Focus on the "it did not work out because of XYZ"... This is where you will gain the most knowledge and the confidence to continue working on your skills.

[nhbubba]

And if you are the high horsepower bike, remember that the smaller bike is attempting to make a nice clean pass on you as you exit the corner. Let them go and you can probably learn something from them.

This could maybe be better ... communicated. More discussion of red-group passing etiquette or something.

What is the correct way to bump groups, in your view? Wait for one of your staff to bring it up? Periodically ask? Decide for yourself?
I've never found that discussed on any websites or anything.

[TTD]

This could maybe be better ... communicated. More discussion of red-group passing etiquette or something.

What is the correct way to bump groups, in your view? Wait for one of your staff to bring it up? Periodically ask? Decide for yourself?
I've never found that discussed on any websites or anything.

yeah, I think while we say it a lot to the red group... they are too overwhelmed to hear/process it all so "take it easy on the throttle" falls to the bottom of their list.

Many times our staff will find you, but once you can easily and readily pass in a group, let one of your assigned staffers know and they'll handle it from there. They may have already seen you and will just bump you, or they may want to follow you for a while, etc.

Again, the key is to be able to ride pretty effortlessly in one group before looking to move up.

[BillF]

I think it's fair to say, my thread either went astray, or just went deeper than I expected it would. Again, it's all good stuff and it's all a learning experience, for novice/seasoned and everybody In between. Thanks

[nhbubba]

Good stuff guys.


Gino, my comments to Graham were with respect to how the instruction built, how I had a hard time seeing the forest through the trees and how I appreciated learning the entire forest only AFTER the fact. That patience is hard to have when you've dropped $250 the wife insists you don't have and are trying like hell to meet your own personal, preconceived goals.

Put another way, it's tempting to shout "Enough of this racing line BS racer-boy! Let's talk about riding!" Only later do you understand.

At least that's how it went for me.


Since we're on a roll. My other weakness is shifting. I haven't a clue where to shift and frequently showed it. I even threw an ill advised downshift or two at my machine. (Sorry baby!) My head was spinning and it was at least lunch before I started to even count my shifts.

[nhbubba]

I think it's fair to say, my thread either went astray, or just went deeper than I expected it would.

And much of it has been said again and again. My experience was that things played out pretty much like everyone said it would. It was a busy, exciting, exhausting day ... that I'd have done over and over for the next month if given the choice.

Seriously, start saving.

[TTD]

Since we're on a roll. My other weakness is shifting. I haven't a clue where to shift and frequently showed it. I even threw an ill advised downshift or two at my machine. (Sorry baby!) My head was spinning and it was at least lunch before I started to even count my shifts.

I am a huge fan of doing as little shifting as possible when you are new to trackdays. Far too often I'll be behind a new track rider that is doing 3 shifts to my 1.

Quite often I'll notice that they are coming out of a corner and shifting way too soon - rather than run the bike up to the top of the rev range. So while I come out and accelerate and brake for the next corner all without changing a gear - they went up and down a gear in the same space.

Learning the track, the line, how to brake and accelerate smoothly, how to set up passes, how to notice the flagging stations, etc... these are all more important than being in the exact "meat" of the powerband.

[nt650hawk]

My head was spinning and it was at least lunch before I started to even count my shifts.

Perfect. Keep doing it. Eventually it will be 2nd nature. Then you change your gearing or you get much faster and have to think about it again. All this stuff at first is overwhelming. You just have to keep chipping away at it.

Hope you are writing all the things you do on the track so you can review it before your next track day. Apex, breaking, throttle on, turn in etc….. this can really go a long way...

[csmutty]

Perfect. Keep doing it. Eventually it will be 2nd nature. Then you change your gearing or you get much faster and have to think about it again. All this stuff at first is overwhelming. You just have to keep chipping away at it.

Hope you are writing all the things you do on the track so you can review it before your next track day. Apex, breaking, throttle on, turn in etc….. this can really go a log way...

Listen here racerboy. He doesn't want to hear about your apexes and fancy racing moves. Let's ride.

[nt650hawk]

Listen here racerboy. He doesn't want to hear about your apexes and fancy racing moves. Let's ride.

Who's talking racing or even track day. This is all street stuff baby. no race magic here.

[jasnmar]

Gino - Great post. Points out a number of things I've been doing exactly wrong.

Amazingly my big heavy monster I refer to loosely as a motorcycle, seems relatively wonderful at breaking (perhaps it's because it weighs so much that braking forces applied to the rear tire work as well). I was regularly getting passed by the liter bikes and the 600's for that matter, but one thing that I noticed was that I was consistently out-breaking them. I "could" break much later and maintain speed much deeper into the corner, but because I was trying to "keep up" I was too close when they started breaking that "forced me" to match their breaking, putting me even further behind, as they could get through the apex at a higher speed (I also have some lean angle limitations, even when my body position isn't horrible).

While I do have better HP than people like 'bub's I also have a bit more weight to throw around which means them pulling away from me on the exit as well (I need to be more aggressive on the exits with the throttle as well). Now Gino tells me not only do I have the wrong bike, but I'm using the wrong theory as well . Now I know.

Yea, I should have explained more on the whole line thing 'bub's. I went into my first day with the same idea of "I don't care about the line, I don't do most of my riding in a place with white X's and cones for me to count". At the end of the day, you understand. It's kind of one of those Karate Kid teaching things.
Miagi: "Wax on right hand. Wax off left hand."
Daniel: "I don't care about wax, when am I going to learn karate?"
Miagi: "Before learn run, must learn walk Danielsan."

Shifting? What's that? I suspect it's something I'm going to need to learn how to do next year :|.

OP: See what you started? You might also want to read through http://www.nestreetriders.com/forum/...-question.html if you're really bored .

[butcher bergs]

Jason - Is your track bike that F4 listed in your signature?

[nt650hawk]

Now Gino tells me not only do I have the wrong bike, but I'm using the wrong theory as well . Now I know.

Glad I could help...... so what the next bike?


Anything with 2 wheels and a motor is the right bike. Hell People have been telling me to get off the Hawk for, I don't know how long. I aim to prove them wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!


You might have the right theory. We just need work on some other opportunities. If is PK was reading this he probably would say "Yea with a sledgehammer!!!!!!!!!"

[jasnmar]

The CBR in my sig is my "new" bike. Purchased it a couple months ago. So far I unloaded it from the trailer, rode it up and down the driveway 3 times and parked it in the garage. I started it yesterday to get some seafoam in the carbs for winter, as I've been busy on a remodel project.

Last year my track time was on the 'wing. The plan is to primarily not be on the track on the 'wing next year (not ruling it out, but a tip over on the wing is more expensive than this entire other bike).

The CBR will be used for my limited track time, as well as for my 2nd street bike (I'm too old and fat to ever think about racing). Most commute stuff will probably still be the 'wing, and certainly any trips with wifey will be the 'wing. CBR will be used for more of the "short" rides on the back roads (or that's the plan).

The CBR has about 26k on it (which isn't too bad), but the guy I bought it from didn't speak to highly of the "kid" he bought it from, and I don't even trust that it was well maintained by the guy I bought it from. Lot's to do to get the CBR in "track" condition. Need to replace tires (have a set of with some miles bought here), suspension feels like crap, replace all fluids at a minimum. Also some things like a new windscreen (mine's cracked), frame sliders, and stands are on the Christmas list.

[nhbubba]

I am a huge fan of doing as little shifting as possible when you are new to trackdays. Far too often I'll be behind a new track rider that is doing 3 shifts to my 1.

Ha. Yeah. This was a blatant experience thing. I have a decade and a half of experience riding around on the street where shifting too much usually doesn't matter at all.

Really I just wasn't even close to consistent about where or when I was shifting. Often I would decide to shift at that last moment and immediately think "Now why the hell did I just do that?!" only to have to shift back almost immediately. Too frequently it was an automatic reaction with no conscious thought. There certainly wasn't a plan.

Hope you are writing all the things you do on the track so you can review it before your next track day.

Writing down? Phhh, that sounds way too much like work.

Actually, I think probably the most enlightening thing I took away was the little clinic on body position in the garages late in the day. I learned that I'd never had my feet positioned correctly. This alone was probably the cause for half the fatigue I felt from the day on the track. Pretty amazing how such a small thing can change things for you.

For the uninitiated: They had an SV-S set up on stands. An instructor showed us what we should be doing with our bodies-on the bike that is-and then encouraged us all to climb on the SV and mimic. Afterwards there was a followup discussion between some of us students with me on my DL on its center stand.

Yea, I should have explained more on the whole line thing 'bub's. I went into my first day with the same idea of "I don't care about the line, I don't do most of my riding in a place with white X's and cones for me to count".

It is unlikely that I would have listened. Hell, you might have said something to that effect and I simply didn't listen.

[gumby]

jasnmar... make sure you finish that remodeling project this winter.

[Larry]

I'm in Limington and will be at all race dates in 2013. Maybe a few Fridays as well. I have a 20' enclosed trailer and usually leave room for extra bikes. It would be awesome to split some of the fuel cost with someone else! Let me know if you or your bike needs a ride to the track.

[BillF]

I'm in Limington and will be at all race dates in 2013. Maybe a few Fridays as well. I have a 20' enclosed trailer and usually leave room for extra bikes. It would be awesome to split some of the fuel cost with someone else! Let me know if you or your bike needs a ride to the track.

I'm paid for May 20 & 21. I do have a two place trailer, set up for bikes. I'm hoping my Son joins me for his first track day also. I'm sure we'll see you on the roads of Me. Or track of Loudon. Thanks.

[Rada]

(I'm too old and fat to ever think about racing).

Never!!!!!

You've seen me right?

On a SV...

I started racing at 42

[Rada]

The best place for smaller bikes to pass big HP bikes is on the brakes. You don't have to finish the pass before the braking zone... you just have to finish it before the tip in point.

Turn 1 and Turn 6 (bowl) are the easiest to pass people on the brakes in RED group.

Turn 3 is a little riskier, but we are going to extend that passing area so you can pass very early in the braking zone there too.

The other thing you need to learn is to come out of the corner at your speed so you come past the other rider. It is then their responsibility to not outdrive you. If they do that, please let your CR or Instructor know so they can address it.

Check out some of the videos, especially of Ken and I. Usually they are in faster groups, but the passes themselves are usually in areas RED can pass too.

Next year, we'll make a special video using low HP bikes (or maybe one of the staffers has a good one already?)

Until then.
Here is a vid from 2011 when I was a Blue group rider on my nearly completely stock SV650. I don't do much passing until the 5 minute mark. But it was super fun day and session. I had to play my cards right to pass the faster bikes. There are a couple times where I could have used my head better. I have learned a lot more since this was shot. There are even a couple times where I bale on a pass as to not push my luck. Try not to pay attention so some of the sloppy lines I take here and there.