2017 Honda CBR 1000RR "Total Control"

[GFORCE]

Total Control Teaser - YouTube

[TheIglu]

"4.10.2016"


For those of us less than European, that means October 4th.

[feralchimp]

Awesome, now make a 400.

[Kurlon]

"Sharper than ever... for a Honda..."

[scottieducati]

Awesome, now make a 400.

LOL. They're killing the CBR600 due to the expense to develop it and meet emissions. A 400 would be just as expensive with even less market appeal.

The new little bikes are singles and parallel twins built as cheaply as possible for their purpose.

We will never see the little bike CBR/VFR/ZXR/FZR etc. 400's again, I'm afraid.

[klp]

I thought Lee Parks was building a special edition bike here.

So confused.

[motoarch]

You're right about the first part for sure. Production cost vs sale price for 600-1000 sports bike just doesn't work.

As for the second part how do you feel the Ktm 390 measures up against the old 400s?

[The Snowman]

Still nothing better than the sound of a V engine on the track. I'll take my 12 year old Aprilia or my former 17 year old SV over any screaming I-4 any day.

[scottieducati]

You're right about the first part for sure. Production cost vs sale price for 600-1000 sports bike just doesn't work.

As for the second part how do you feel the Ktm 390 measures up against the old 400s?

The old 400s were scaled down super bikes. Multi cylinder engines with things like slipper clutches standard as far back as '88. The KTM is cool and all, but a single (or parallel twin) just aren't in the same league and never will be. There is a reason they're making the small bikes by recycling smaller engines used elsewhere, it's cheaper.

You also don't get fully adjustable suspension on most small bikes now.

[motoarch]

Good points. It's too bad because I would love a true ss 500 or less for track work. I just don't need 110hp to have fun.

[scottieducati]

I know of a really nice mid-80's ish horsepower Ducati 900SS track bike that's available...

[feralchimp]

LOL. They're killing the CBR600 due to the expense to develop it and meet emissions. A 400 would be just as expensive with even less market appeal.
The new little bikes are singles and parallel twins built as cheaply as possible for their purpose.
We will never see the little bike CBR/VFR/ZXR/FZR etc. 400's again, I'm afraid.

Yup.
The 400 would probably be even more expensive to develop.
Modest proposal: Charge more for the 400 than they do for the 1000, and see what happens.

[Kurlon]

Yup.
The 400 would probably be even more expensive to develop.
Modest proposal: Charge more for the 400 than they do for the 1000, and see what happens.

They've tried that. FZR400 vs FZR600. The 400 was lighter, had an aluminum frame vs the steelie on the 600 and the only people in the US that went for it were racers. (Many were bought just for the chassis, the 400 motor getting tossed to the curb so the 600 could be slipped in.) It did better in the UK and other areas that had tiered licensing.

[tls25rs]

tiered licensing.

Yup, sadly tiered licensing is the only way that smaller displacement motorcycles succeed.

[Kurlon]

Yup, sadly tiered licensing is the only way that smaller displacement performance motorcycles succeed.

Tweaked that for ya. Small bikes have always been sales leaders, and the current crop of baby machines are no different. They just aren't the bite sized fire breathers we all dream of.

[PhilB]

Yup, sadly tiered licensing is the only way that smaller displacement motorcycles succeed.

Yeah, a product that you have to use government force to make people buy isn't much of a success, really.

PhilB

[loudbeard]

Yeah, a product that you have to use government force to make people buy isn't much of a success, really.

PhilB

Yes, because that's the reason behind tiered licensing. At a certain point you're just being argumentative for the sake of it.

[R7]

Yeah, a product that you have to use government force to make people buy isn't much of a success, really.

PhilB

European's must be doing it wrong then. Just spent 10 days traveling Europe and 90% of the bikes I saw were 250cc and less...most popular sportbikes I saw were Yamaha YZF R125, and the Aprilia RS4-125.

[scottieducati]

I'd rather "government force" that kept idiots off liter bikes than the utter lack of any semblance of training we have here. To each their own.

[PhilB]

Yes, because that's the reason behind tiered licensing. At a certain point you're just being argumentative for the sake of it.

I didn't say that was why there was tiered licensing. The other way around -- I said that tiered licensing is why people bought those bikes, and that they wouldn't buy them if they didn't have to, which is evidenced by the fact that in America, without tiered licensing, there's very little demand for those bikes.

European's must be doing it wrong then. Just spent 10 days traveling Europe and 90% of the bikes I saw were 250cc and less...most popular sportbikes I saw were Yamaha YZF R125, and the Aprilia RS4-125.

Mostly because of tiered licensing. You support my point.

I'd rather "government force" that kept idiots off liter bikes than the utter lack of any semblance of training we have here. To each their own.

*You'd rather ...* -- but you're talking about making other people do things, so what "you'd rather" isn't relevant. "To each their own" is a fine principle, if actually followed. But saying "to each their own" about a thing where the government uses force to make some people NOT able to have "to each their own" is wrong.

PhilB

[Paul_E_D]

I didn't say that was why there was tiered licensing. The other way around -- I said that tiered licensing is why people bought those bikes, and that they wouldn't buy them if they didn't have to, which is evidenced by the fact that in America, without tiered licensing, there's very little demand for those bikes.

Mostly because of tiered licensing. You support my point.

*You'd rather ...* -- but you're talking about making other people do things, so what "you'd rather" isn't relevant. "To each their own" is a fine principle, if actually followed. But saying "to each their own" about a thing where the government uses force to make some people NOT able to have "to each their own" is wrong.

PhilB

But there are so many more riders in europe it makes you wonder... why? There's almost zero chance it is some reason OTHER than tiered licensing. Reduced intimidation, cheaper buy in, some goal to work for. It definitely draws more people than the free market.

[jasnmar]

Fuel cost is almost certainly a factor in the fact that there are more riders.

[PhilB]

But there are so many more riders in europe it makes you wonder... why? There's almost zero chance it is some reason OTHER than tiered licensing. Reduced intimidation, cheaper buy in, some goal to work for. It definitely draws more people than the free market.

It's a mix. High fuel costs. High motoring costs and taxation. Lower incomes. Shorter distances to travel. It has nothing to do with tiered licensing at all.

Some of it is cultural, in that in Europe, the general populace is open to considering motorcycles as a basic transportation option. Most of Europe didn't have cars that were affordable to the common man until near or after WWII, and thus spent several decades with motorcycles as the transport option for the average man. So that idea still persists in the cultures -- riding every day isn't considered something that just a few weirdos do. The U.S. never had that phase; the Model T was introduced in 1908. So in America, motorcycles have always been primarily toys, a luxury item, a thing that most people bought because they wanted to, not because that was all they could afford. Here, when I talk about me not having had a car for transportation since 1988, even other motorcyclists think that's nuts.

i.e. It has a lot to do with the free market.

PhilB

[Paul_E_D]

True. Scooters were selling well when fuel hit 4$ per gal. Then prices mysteriously dropped. I smell a rat!

[scottieducati]

We make other people do things all the time. Particularly when their choices negatively impact others, like when 16 year olds buy liter bikes and crash them. The rest of us pay for it with higher costs in medical care and insurance.

I'm all for freedoms, but you should only be free "to each their own" when your actions don't impact others. The minute they do, they should be subject to controls.

Tiered licensing doesn't preclude you from buying whatever you want, you just have do demonstrate you're capable and responsible enough to do so without fucking up.

Life isn't as simple as your arguments suggest.