New African Twin Maybe 1200cc

[TheIglu]

I think the ADV bikes are GREAT for the type of riding I do, which is commuting/lunch runs on absolute shit roads, shit pavement, shit dirt roads. They can eat up slab all day long, hit the twisties better than most can pilot them, manage just fine on all but the worst dirt roads, etc.

[nhbubba]

Those trails are fucking sweet.

I too like to judge motorcycles-no, entire genres of motorcycles-based on the people I see riding them. That seems reasonable to me. I mean GSXRs are terrible, only good for squiding. And Harleys are trash only good for carrying fat tatooed fucks around. Amirite?!

I wouldn't ask my ADV bike to tackle "hero section" dirt trails any sooner than I'd ask my dirt bike to pull off a coast to coast tour.

Paul, I watched your trip from afar through the faceybook. The roads and terrain you were on looked entirely different than the stuff I ride here at home. That's what it comes down to at the end of the day; right tool for the job. A 250cc dual-sport BLOWS on our Interstate highways. I find my KLX400 hard to ride on even our 55 MPH state highways. It's a giggle on dirt roads, pretty competent on the class 6 unmaintained stuff, and gets 'er done on the trails, in a pinch. Meanwhile a Gold Wing is sketchy on the dirt roads, but gobbles that Interslab all day long.

Right tool.

If you never ride interslab, a 1000cc+ ADV is probably a waste.
If you never ride single-track, a 300cc 2-stroke woods bike is probably a waste.
If you never tour, an 1800cc tour-barge is probably a waste.

We can go on. I believe I'm stating the obvious here.


What I don't like is the push for bigger and heavier ADVs. From day 1 I wanted to see this Africa Twin in the 800cc ballpark and at least 50 lbs lighter. I don't want an old tech thumper. Even the KTM/Husky 690/701 Enduro is a maybe. (Although I have my days!) Multi cylinder rides are much better for the highway. But then I don't need 1k+cc for this either. Don't need 100+ HP. Don't need 150 MPH top ends. Don't need tech out the ass. Keep it simple, yes. But give me some highway capability.

Manufacturers are teasing this too. KTM is teasing an 800 ADV ride. Yami has teased an FZ07 based Tenere.

Build it. I'm still a buyer. ADVs ain't dead, yo.

[Paul_E_D]

Did you read my post about the talk with other long distance ADV riders? We are on the same page. THe bike does not exist yet.

[Chippertheripper]

Dunt, duh duhhhh....or does it?!

[TheIglu]

I think Honda making a 1k vs going bigger and bigger like all the other ADV bike manufacturers is a step in the right direction.

[nhbubba]

Did you read my post about the talk with other long distance ADV riders? We are on the same page. THe bike does not exist yet.

No. I'm doing some of this pesky work on the side. Shitload of posts between when I started typing and managed to hit the post button.

The thing you're missing is that most ADV bike buyers are not "long distance ADV riders". That's actually a tiny demographic. Few even pretend. They're just looking for well rounded, capable, fun to ride machines.

Let's also review the sport touring segment. Most of the offerings there are actually luxo-tour barges in drag. Kawi is making the Ninja 1k.. but won't put real tour features on it. Everyone else makes 600+ lbs bikes that cost a mint. ADVs are an alternative to that. I still consider my 'Strom a "half naked middleweight sport tourer" more than anything else. Pop some Pilot Roads and luggage on and jam. Can't do that on a 690 Enduro. Not without the buthole ache anyway.


For me personally, I'm approaching a crossroads. I'm either going to be in the market for a real luxo tour barge, something comfortable for 2-up and lots of highway, won't go near anything more than a well graded dirt road. Or I'm going to be doing a shitload less street riding and looking for a state of the art trail worthy dual-sport that is platable from the showroom floor and good for hardware store beer runs.

I've actually been eying a late 2000's R1200RT or FJR1300. 600 lbs!!!

[Chippertheripper]

He doesn't post much, Colin, but Steve Methia (tricklidz) should be your goto for all things rt. He and Mary have put thousands of miles on at least the last 2 gens, 2up and in style.

[TheIglu]

I've actually been eying a late 2000's R1200RT or FJR1300. 600 lbs!!!

Going from a Wee to a FJR (my dad has one), the FJR hides it's size and weight REALLY well. I think you'd be happy with it for most everything.

[nhbubba]

I demo'ed one at the Yami tent last year on a lark. I wanted to demo the R3 and there was a wait, so I took the FJR for a rip while waiting.

I fucking loved it. Like, immediately.

That with my 200 XC-W on the side for woods play and the SV beater for track days would leave me happy as a pig in shit.
Maybe swap the 200 for a Beta 390RR in a year or two. Maybe.

[breakdirt916]

I am with Paul...The bike doesn't exist!

Bigger bikes suck on real off road

Dunno what a tornado is though...Kinda like an XT?

[TheIglu]

I know this is like talking to a wall, but my dad bought his new, liked it fine but wasn't thrilled, then some shithead son of his convinced him to go in on a group buy for a custom Russel Day Long for it.


Now he LOVES the bike.

[SRTie4k]

I wonder if some of you will ever be satisfied. An ADV bike is a compromise, no matter who makes it, how big it is, how much power it has, how heavy it is.

What I can say is that I'm still absolutely thrilled with my compromise bike. Yeah, it's a big 500lb luxo sport-tourer with wire wheels and 70/30 on/off road tires, but its handled hours on the pavement excellent, and hours out on the two-track snowmobile roads of Pittsburg great too. A dirt bike it ain't, nor is it a sedate long distance barge, but it does a good amount of everything very well. I'll be riding it down to NC with my buddy (on his Tiger 800 XCA) in May, and we'll be doing some dirty roads down there, then slabbing back home after a week. What bike would do that better?

And it power wheelies in 4th...who the hell wouldn't want that?

[Paul_E_D]

Just suggesting that there is a niche left to fill. light/middle weight performance oriented ADV bike with an accent on the ADV. I have no doubt there are some great bike in the segment.

[nhbubba]

Just suggesting that there is a niche left to fill. light/middle weight performance oriented ADV bike with an accent on the ADV. I have no doubt there are some great bike in the segment.

In that case, I agree entirely.
But I don't see the segment set to "die back a bit" at all. If anything I think the sport-tourer segment has a nail in its coffin.. thanks to the availability of these lighter (relatively) ADV offerings.

Although the FJ-09 is promising. I hear there is a "MT 07 Tracer" (ie an FJ-07 of sorts) available in Europe. Give that the ADV treatment, the 'tenere' name and they'd have a winner, I think.

[Garandman]

I think the ADV craze may die back a bit. People are realizing that without a career in enduro racing, these things aren't really fun to dirt ride. I Guatemala last month I rode 7 days on a few different bikes over incredibly rough roads. The spectrum from GS800 to CRF250X. The shocking conclusion that I came to was that teh best true ADV bikes for rough roads, single track, and some pavement are 250cc dualsports. (Don't sell the KLX yet Bubba! We had Honda Tornados which are based off of the xr250 platform! ancient and anemic, we all agreed that covering big days off pavement was easiest and least fatiguing on these little turds. //

I continue to be blown away by how capable the WR250R is. 295 lbs wet. The seat is pretty hard and narrow for a long trip, and a lot of people go to a larger fuel tank, but it does almost everything better than the KLR650 I had.

[ducatirdr]

NETRA has a few Dual Sport rides mixed into their Turkey run schedules. These have hero sections that are easier than the TR hero sections but a mile. Basically think of broken down class 6 roads with wash out sections that require trials type riding rather than big throttle applications. The AMA Berkshire ride is a great time for big bikes. The hero's are doable but make sure you bike is up for it. I did see more than one broken turn signal and scratched/dinged up bike but for the most part it was really fun and more about picking a good line than giving it gas to save your a$$.

I still read the reviews and watch Chris Birch KTM videos. They are much like the Triumph/Icon video above. Filling my head with nonsense about highway rides to new off road trails where I can explore at a careful pace. Much like Jeep tours vs Baja 1000 racers. ADV bikes are about witnessing the scenery off pavement vs making it blur with speed.

The problem for me is that I want to pretend to be Chris Birch and want the bike to make that happen. There isn't a bike capable of that.

[SteveM]

There are always compromises and there will never be a do it all 1 motorcycle.

For what I enjoy doing, slab away from home, explore back roads, a few short dirt excursions, come back home 400 miles later, the VFR1200X is working. Something more dirt worthy would beat me up on the highway, and it's at least 2 hours each way for me to get to somewhere I want to explore. Something even better on the highway, like my former F6b, needs real pavement all the time or it gets unhappy.

I expect it to also handle multi-day trips quite well, stringing a week or so of these rides together in different locations.

[markbvt]

Mark is the only one I know who actually followed through and bought one. Last review I heard was he liked his tiger better. Sounded like he regretted buying the Honda.

Regretted it? No. I do like the Tiger better overall (it's the bike I'd keep if I could only have one), but the Africa Twin is a great bike. The low CG and better suspension make it a little more confidence-inspiring on dirt than the Tiger, though the Tiger is the better-handling bike on pavement. And the Tiger's motor is more engaging.

I think the ADV craze may die back a bit. People are realizing that without a career in enduro racing, these things aren't really fun to dirt ride.

Virtually no one views an ADV bike as a trail bike. The reason they're selling so well is that they're awesomely versatile bikes for riding a wide variety of roads, including the badly broken pavement plaguing much of the northeast these days, which makes riding a sportbike a seriously painful and fatiguing experience. Furthermore, the ADV bikes at the dirtier end of the spectrum, such as the Africa Twin, Tiger 800 XC, F800GS, and 1190 Adventure R, are awesome for going long-distance dirt road exploring. Sure, in theory you could do that on anything, but one of these ADV bikes with semiknobby tires makes it that much more fun.

That fabled lightweight but long-distance-comfy ADV bike will never exist. The characteristics people are looking for are in large part mutually exclusive. Multicylinder engine and large gas tank pretty much rule out bringing the wet weight in under 400lbs, let alone 300 (and even 400 would be difficult). Even if it could be done, a 300lb bike would get blown around like crazy on higher-speed open-road stretches -- fun as that bike would be on the dirtier stuff, it would be exhausting on long highway stretches (and let's be realistic -- for long-distance ADV touring, sometimes those long highway stretches are necessary).

As a result, ADV touring needs to be planned accordingly. Something like an Africa Twin is remarkably capable with a good rider on board, but even an outstanding rider should probably think carefully about riding gnarly terrain hundreds/thousands of miles from home, when that bike is their sole transportation. If you want to ride serious dirt out west, you're better off trailering a KTM 350 out there. If your aim (as in my case) is to enjoy the ride out there and back as well, then it makes sense to be a little conservative about what kind of terrain you're going to tackle.

As Colin pointed out, use the right tool for the job.

I will say that Mark, David, and I had a fantastic time on our porky ADV bikes (two Africa Twins and a Tiger 800 XC) in Labrador and Newfoundland in September.

--mark

[nhbubba]

Regretted it? No. I do like the Tiger better overall (it's the bike I'd keep if I could only have one), but the Africa Twin is a great bike. The low CG and better suspension make it a little more confidence-inspiring on dirt than the Tiger, though the Tiger is the better-handling bike on pavement. And the Tiger's motor is more engaging.

I guess it's grown on you since you offered to sell it to me. Sounded like some serious second thoughts early on.

I disagree that it would be impossible to put together a solid middleweight option. A 6-800cc twin with a modest fairing and call it a 5 gallon or so tank. The MT/FZ-07 weighs in at just under 400 lbs wet. 20 lbs for more 2 gal more fuel and you still have another 30 lbs to spend on other ADV bits. 450 wet and ready to ride would be pretty compelling.

They could make it. I'm not clear why they don't.
My guess is margin. The 1k+ offerings are still selling well enough to make them want to soak up that $ first.

[markbvt]

I guess it's grown on you since you offered to sell it to me. Sounded like some serious second thoughts early on.

At first I had trouble gelling with it. But it grew on me a lot in the latter half of the summer, and especially once I took it touring. A huge part of my initial problem with it turned out to be the windshield, which produced severe helmet buffeting. Cutting it down transformed the bike for me overnight.

I disagree that it would be impossible to put together a solid middleweight option. A 6-800cc twin with a modest fairing and call it a 5 gallon or so tank. The MT/FZ-07 weighs in at just under 400 lbs wet. 20 lbs for more 2 gal more fuel and you still have another 30 lbs to spend on other ADV bits. 450 wet and ready to ride would be pretty compelling.

450 wet, sure. But Paul was talking about sub 300 pounds.

For what it's worth, the Tiger 800 XC is 475 wet, the F800GS a few pounds less. The KTM 950 Super Enduro was around 450 wet, maybe a little less. So that mark can certainly be reached, and I agree, it should be. In fact, I really think the designers should shoot for sub 400 pounds as much as possible. If Yamaha achieves that with the Tenere, I'll think long and hard about trading the Africa Twin. But I don't think they will. I expect that bike to come in north of 450 pounds. Even the previous-generation single-cylinder Tenere was close to 450.

--mark

[nhbubba]

Yeah. I missed his sub-300 req. That's crazy. Ain't gunna happen in something road worthy. With you there.

Doesn't have to be over 500 though. Big disappointment with the AT.

I still wanna take one out and spank it. Bet I'll like it.

[scottieducati]

I don't think the manufacturers have missed it at all. They realize 0.003% of the people who buy these bikes want a sub-300# HERO SECTION KILLAH that can also do highway.

The weight is a result of being designed as a do-it-all bike. To get to that # / performance ratio, many nice nice expensive materials and other things would need to be used and nobody but about 37 riders in the US will buy it.

[e30addict]

I will say that Mark, David, and I had a fantastic time on our porky ADV bikes (two Africa Twins and a Tiger 800 XC) in Labrador and Newfoundland in September.

--mark

Yup. Love my porky ADV bike. It's the best fit for the type of riding I'm into and/or capable of.

I'm not capable of riding anything faster on the street and if if I need something for gnarlier trails I still have the WR to crash, err learn on.

[cdovego]

I don't think the manufacturers have missed it at all. They realize 0.003% of the people who buy these bikes want a sub-300# HERO SECTION KILLAH that can also do highway.

The weight is a result of being designed as a do-it-all bike. To get to that # / performance ratio, many nice nice expensive materials and other things would need to be used and nobody but about 37 riders in the US will buy it.

Walk through the vendor area at any GP race and you'll be swamped by interns for each manufacturer asking you want you want in a bike. They know who wants what and how many there are. I think you're 100% correct, sorta like the cafe crowd. People think it's big but it's not and those in it aren't spending much. Same as the niche ADV guys.

[scottieducati]

Bottom line is that sort of bike does exist, just most don't like big singles on the highway. KLR / Husky / KTM ~600+ singles are pretty much it, have been for years, and anything more complex or refined for that category would come at a lot of expense and the market just isn't there.

KTM's new parallel twin may open up a lot of doors tho...