Automatic for the People

[oVTo]

With apologies to REM et al.

Most bikes are parked and winter-time winds blow cold this season, time for a motorcycle thread that's neither oil nor tires.

Kevin Cameron wrote about transmissions in the January 2014 issue of Cycle World. Cameron is a god of moto-journalism; more like Zeus than Anicetus. As always, it was an interesting article.

He wrote about the new "seamless" Moto GP transmissions, describing them this way, "While a normal six-speed transmission must first be shifted to neutral between gears, and only then to a higher gear, a seamless gearbox engages the next higher gear before disengaging the ratio it's currently driving. It then uses the reverse torque on the current gear to kick it out of engagement." He goes on to describe the benefits of the seamless transmissions, mostly that the rider gets better drive out of the corners.

On the long ride back from Barber (before reading the article), we had a discussion about seamless transmissions and reached the conclusions that, a) we didn't understand them, and b) thus, they must be pure fucking magic. In two sentences, Cameron destroyed both of those conclusions. His articles alone are worth the price of a CW subscription. But I digress...

He went on to write about MotoGP bike transmissions, and the differences between the Honda and Yamaha bikes. He suggested that Moto GP might be using automated dual-clutch transmissions (like high-end cars) if they weren't banned. After adding a few other points about advancing technology, he tied it all together by suggesting that fully manual transmissions, or at least the days of clutching-and-shifting are approaching an end.

Pure heresy, why would he suggest that?! Two key reasons.

First, the number of people who drive manual transmission cars is low and keeps decreasing. I just checked and less than 10% of cars are stick shift (August 2013 data was 4%). From a market perspective, auto transmission bikes will make simplify the car-to-motorcycle transmission and increase the number of potential customers.

Second, it's better, and faster. Did anyone else notice the change in Lorenzo's results after he got the new bike? Would he have won the championship if he had the seamless transmission all year? It sure looks like seamless, a half-step to fully auto, makes the bikes significantly faster. They might also have better mpg, an advantage in racing with fuel supply constraints, and a benefit to everyday riders.

Hand clutches appear to be destined to go the way of foot-clutches and suicide shifters, telephone and elevator operators, and carbureted motorcycles. Troglodytes will insist on the clutch's benefits, the real world will move on.

Cameron seems to think automatic transmissions are the future of motorcycling. Discuss?

[golden chicken]

I, for one, don't want to make it any easier for the texting, coffee sipping, half sleeping general public to get on a motorcycle. In fact, I wish it was HARDER to drive; then perhaps people would pay more attention to the task at hand. I very much despise the newest features that purport to enhance safety, but really only make it easier to pay less attention to actually driving.

Could you make a case for dual clutch semi-automatic race-replica bikes from a pure performance point of view? Sure! But riding on the street is (in my humble opinion) about the whole immersive experience, and having to skillfully use your whole body, head, hands, arms, legs and feet is something I never want to give up. Then again, I'm one of those people who really enjoys rowing the gears in my car as well.

[e30addict]

I, for one, don't want to make it any easier for the texting, coffee sipping, half sleeping general public to get on a motorcycle. In fact, I wish it was HARDER to drive; then perhaps people would pay more attention to the task at hand. I very much despise the newest features that purport to enhance safety, but really only make it easier to pay less attention to actually driving.

Could you make a case for dual clutch semi-automatic race-replica bikes from a pure performance point of view? Sure! But riding on the street is (in my humble opinion) about the whole immersive experience, and having to skillfully use your whole body, head, hands, arms, legs and feet is something I never want to give up. Then again, I'm one of those people who really enjoys rowing the gears in my car as well.

I was just going to go with "no thanks", but this works better.

[B440]

I, for one, don't want to make it any easier for the texting, coffee sipping, half sleeping general public to get on a motorcycle. In fact, I wish it was HARDER to drive; then perhaps people would pay more attention to the task at hand. I very much despise the newest features that purport to enhance safety, but really only make it easier to pay less attention to actually driving.

Could you make a case for dual clutch semi-automatic race-replica bikes from a pure performance point of view? Sure! But riding on the street is (in my humble opinion) about the whole immersive experience, and having to skillfully use your whole body, head, hands, arms, legs and feet is something I never want to give up. Then again, I'm one of those people who really enjoys rowing the gears in my car as well.

This kid would completely disagree:

[breakdirt916]

what's up with all the links in your thread?

[Imbeek]

Guess I'm a 4 per center, just bought a new car with a stick

[nhbubba]

This kid...

Is it wrong that I want to strangle that whiney fuck with his skinny jeans?

If it has an automatic transmission, I'm not buying. YMMV.

[Tunertype]

Only high end motorcycles come with auto like the VFR. I could do without shifting, but putting all the acceleration control on the tiny movements of your wrist in slow speed maneuvers seems more difficult with a gas engine. I'll keep the clutch. I've riden a 50cc scooter without a problem, but could anticipate a full sized maxi scooter being more difficult to drive than a 1000ss bike at low speeds.

Bike transmissions are much easier to use than car manuals. It's about as simple as those auto stick transmission upshift buttons. In a manual car though its that whole stupid shift pattern and figuring out where the manufacturer decided reverse should be this time. Also dealing with a harsh dry clutch vs a smooth wet one makes it a lot more difficult in the transitions. I'm sure there are plenty of young bikers who've never used a car manual tranny and would be completely lost if they had to try.

All electric bikes will be auto though since they don't need transmissions to fix the shortcomings of gas engines torque curves. Again right now its $30,000 bikes, but in the future we may get some decent affordable electric bikes.

[SteveM]

The Honda CTX has an auto right now, not a high end bike.

I've ridden it and it works just fine, low speed as well as on the road.

I like manuals, but admit it is merely a personal preference. There is nothing I can do better than an automatic, but perhaps many of you are just a lot better than me and the ECU.

Years ago, the same wailing began about cars. Now look around. Things change, technology improves, rational folks adopt, or at least adapt.

[Paul_E_D]

Wirelessly posted

Yeah steve, but we still have the one dollar bill. Not everthing that CAN change has to change.

[csmutty]

I like my manual. Difference between a commuter and an enthusiast.

[golden chicken]

Is it wrong that I want to strangle that whiney fuck with his skinny jeans?

If it has an automatic transmission, I'm not buying. YMMV.

No. I wanted to strangle him as well. I absolutely despise the "do it for me" attitude so much of my generation and the next seem to have.

[e30addict]

In a manual car though its that whole stupid shift pattern and figuring out where the manufacturer decided reverse should be this time.

Ummm, a basic H pattern is hard to figure out? Honestly, if people can't figure that out I'd question if they're really ready to handle a vehicle that weighs several thousand pounds in public.

Reverse isn't bad either. In general American and Japanese cars seem to favor right and down while the Europeans tends to use up and left.

[nhbubba]

On the other hand, how many people have you met that don't know what the letter 'D' on their automatic shifter stands for? We had a no-shit, actually serious discussion at work the other day about what the '1' and '2' positions were for. I work with engineers who should fucking know better.

This little gem is my all-time favorite:

Mazda was forced to recall[when?] the Mazda5 in the United States shortly after production began due to a risk of exhaust system fires, discovered by US Mazda engineer Curtis Lee. Owners that were not made aware of the manual shifting mode ("sport mode") of the 4-speed automatic transmission would mistakenly leave the shifter in that position, resulting in high temperatures as the car would remain in second gear. Mazda's solution was to add a heat shield around the muffler and to alter the vehicle's software to not allow excessively high engine speeds beyond a short period of time when in "sport mode". Although the five-speed manual transmission equipped cars would seemingly not need to be recalled, Mazda chose to retrofit all Mazda5 versions with the new parts and software. The company also gave customers US$500 (for Canadian owners, it is C$500) plus a loaner car while the problem was mitigated. 2,700 vehicles were affected.

Careful guys, it's a fucking free-for all out there. Manufacturers seem to be aiming lower and lower these days.

[oVTo]

what's up with all the links in your thread?

I was bored, watching some college football, reading CW, and watching random music videos on Youtube. I just typed words from the original post into Youtube's search window and picked random results and linked them. Some songs I knew, others I didn't, and I picked everything from children's songs to Monte Python to maybe marginally nsfw videos. No reason for doing it and I figured most people would click a link or two and lose interest. I screwed up the link of the one new (to me) song I really liked. It's a piece called Everyday by Carly Comando. I'm a huge fan of piano music.


Cameron makes some good points and I think there's a good chance he's right in the long-term. He mentioned that the seamless transmission will be a $700,000 option for Honda's Moto GP lease program next year. It will be interesting to see who buys it and whether there's a difference in the standings for those teams.

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit. I like manual transmissions and working on improving my shifting skills as much as anyone else. I thought this topic would be more entertaining than his column last month on the history of advances in plain bearing metallurgy. That was an interesting column, but not very discussion-worthy.

[OreoGaborio]

I was bored, watching some college football, reading CW, and watching random music videos on Youtube. I just typed words from the original post into Youtube's search window and picked random results and linked them. Some songs I knew, others I didn't, and I picked everything from children's songs to Monte Python to maybe marginally nsfw videos. No reason for doing it and I figured most people would click a link or two and lose interest. I screwed up the link of the one new (to me) song I really liked. It's a piece called Everyday by Carly Comando. I'm a huge fan of piano music.

With all those links, your post looked like a classic spam post. I almost deleted the thread & sent you a PM to tell you someone hacked your account

[markbvt]

This kid would completely disagree:

Jesus. That kid's a fucking idiot living in fantasy land.

And can someone explain what the hell is wrong with the many kids/young adults these days who are perfectly happy to stick to "walkable neighborhoods" and rely on friends/family for rides anywhere they can't walk to? What happened to independence and self-determination? To getting out and seeing a little bit of the world around you? Maybe we should press the auto makers to build them those self-driving cars, then watch as a glitch in the programming causes all those cars to drive off cliffs.

--mark

[markbvt]

Okay, back to the topic at hand: I personally think there are some very good reasons to stick with a manual transmission in both cars and bikes. Being able to disengage the drivetrain has benefits in certain conditions, especially when things get slippery to allow the tires to have all forces removed in order to gain as much traction as possible. And there are many situations in which the operator needs to be able to control what gear the vehicle is in. That may not be relevant to basic commuting, but in high-performance or technical situations the human brain is much better at making judgments than a computer is (dirt riding in particular is a good example).

In MotoGP where hundredths of a second can win or lose a race, sure, advanced transmission technology makes sense. I can see high-end sport bikes eventually moving to that kind of technology even for consumers. And I can see CVT or similar transmissions catching on in bikes aimed at the commuter market (which would be primarily in parts of the world in which bikes make up a large part of the commuter fleet, i.e., not North America). But I expect that among enthusiasts like us, and in certain competition segments of the sport (like dirt riding), manual transmissions will remain dominant for a long time to come.

Note that none of the available automatic models (the Aprilia Mana, the automatic version of the VFR, etc) have sold well. This had already been tried around 1980 with the Hondamatic, etc, and those didn't sell well either. The motorcycle market is very different from the car market.

--mark

[CBR929RE]

Is it wrong that I want to strangle that whiney fuck with his skinny jeans?

If it has an automatic transmission, I'm not buying. YMMV.

no, that kid is an idiot. I don't think I'd get in a car with no driver.
and are people up to 34 really millenials? no fucking way I would lump myself in with kids who are under 20 now.

Only high end motorcycles come with auto like the VFR. I could do without shifting, but putting all the acceleration control on the tiny movements of your wrist in slow speed maneuvers seems more difficult with a gas engine. I'll keep the clutch. I've riden a 50cc scooter without a problem, but could anticipate a full sized maxi scooter being more difficult to drive than a 1000ss bike at low speeds.

Bike transmissions are much easier to use than car manuals. It's about as simple as those auto stick transmission upshift buttons. In a manual car though its that whole stupid shift pattern and figuring out where the manufacturer decided reverse should be this time. Also dealing with a harsh dry clutch vs a smooth wet one makes it a lot more difficult in the transitions. I'm sure there are plenty of young bikers who've never used a car manual tranny and would be completely lost if they had to try.

All electric bikes will be auto though since they don't need transmissions to fix the shortcomings of gas engines torque curves. Again right now its $30,000 bikes, but in the future we may get some decent affordable electric bikes.

we have a few automatic trucks at work which I think might be more automated manuals (feels like the clutch is automated not the actual transmission). they SUCK at slow speed. acceleration is either full on or off from a stop. you step on the pedal halfway and it really does almost nothing. backing up to a dock is a 2 footed affair or else you slam into building cause once you let off the pedal it stops. I refuse to take one on my route because I need to go nice and slow clutching it around one turn in a parking lot that I have inches to make the turn around cars.

and its funny you say people don't understand the shift pattern. I had this helper at work and he was curious about the shift pattern so I explained it to him. reverse is up and left. then its a 5 speed H pattern then you flip a switch on the front of the shifter up into the high range and start over. After I explained it to him while waiting at a stop sign I then started to drive and he was confused, probably cause I start in 4th gear. I'm not sure he really got it even after I explained it again while doing it. and he claims he can drive a manual car. I think he was also confused with me not using the clutch to shift. you can't fix stupid I guess.

Jesus. That kid's a fucking idiot living in fantasy land.

And can someone explain what the hell is wrong with the many kids/young adults these days who are perfectly happy to stick to "walkable neighborhoods" and rely on friends/family for rides anywhere they can't walk to? What happened to independence and self-determination? To getting out and seeing a little bit of the world around you? Maybe we should press the auto makers to build them those self-driving cars, then watch as a glitch in the programming causes all those cars to drive off cliffs.

--mark

I completely agree with you but its weird to me because I drive just about anything on the road and don't rely on anyone to drive me around while my twin brother doesn't have his license and walks, takes public transportation or relies on his girlfriend to drive him. He spends an hour and a half getting to work and he's only going from Braintree to Newton. Should be like a 30-45 minutes maybe an hour with bad traffic. I guess he just doesn't see his time as being that valuable.



to go back to the actual topic at hand. I don't think the clutch will go away. You look at MotoGP and they haven't been using the clutch for upshifts in forever. has nothing to do with the seamless transmission or even quickshifters. a sequential gearbox is naturally able to be shifted without the clutch with relative ease. you can shift a manual car without the clutch too but its a lot more difficult I think because of the synchros and shifter pattern. I remember reading an article a few years ago by Elena Myers when she got to ride the Suzuki GSVR. the technicians told her to not use the clutch once she was moving because it had an autoblipper for downshifts. I thought it was weird because even though I had heard about them I knew Rossi at the time was still using his clutch for downshifts because you could see him doing.
for me a commuter car I want automatic. I see it as a chore during every day driving. if I were to ever buy a fun car I'd want a manual. a bike I will always want a manual. in both of those instances I see it as being part of the fun.

[dontpanic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-aDqAWkZHQ

Quad box.

Edit: I used to ride along with a buddy who had a '63 B61 Mack with the 711. It had a five-speed primary with a four-speed brownie box auxiliary (plus a PTO for a wet system). I drove it a couple of times, but never used the brownie box.

[Chippertheripper]

I'd definitely ride one. It's one less thing to think about. On the street it'd be either more mental space to either just enjoy myself or concentrate on not getting killed. On the track it'd free up the same mind space to concentrate on bp and getting on the gas sooner.

[Tunertype]

Ummm, a basic H pattern is hard to figure out? Honestly, if people can't figure that out I'd question if they're really ready to handle a vehicle that weighs several thousand pounds in public.

Reverse isn't bad either. In general American and Japanese cars seem to favor right and down while the Europeans tends to use up and left.

Just saying a car is way more complicated than a bike. I'd probably even go so far as to say driving an automatic car is more difficult than driving a manual bike. The main reason being there are a lot more controls and times when you have to move your hands off the controls to other controls. On a bike everything is right there and it's very basic and simple. Its a reason for not needing an auto on a bike since the manual system on a bike is so easy to learn and simplistic.

[golden chicken]

Just saying a car is way more complicated than a bike. I'd probably even go so far as to say driving an automatic car is more difficult than driving a manual bike. The main reason being there are a lot more controls and times when you have to move your hands off the controls to other controls. On a bike everything is right there and it's very basic and simple. Its a reason for not needing an auto on a bike since the manual system on a bike is so easy to learn and simplistic.

Wait, what?

Controls neccessary to operate a motorcycle--sometimes all simultaneously--and all while balancing:

handlebars
clutch
throttle
front brake
rear brake
gearshift

Controls neccessary to operate an automatic car--extremely rarely all simultaneously:

steering wheel
brake pedal
gas pedal

[nhbubba]

Just saying a car is way more complicated than a bike. I'd probably even go so far as to say driving an automatic car is more difficult than driving a manual bike. The main reason being there are a lot more controls and times when you have to move your hands off the controls to other controls.

[typeone]

manual trans fo'eva.. .

my kid better not end up like the doosh in the Banana Shirt. he'd rather watch 'Finding Nemo' then take on the responsibility of driving? uh, what?