clutchless DOWNshifting

[RandyO]

Originally posted by 35racer
Are you saying to not roll off the throttle when you "tap" the clutch?

Basically, if you pre-load the shifter, it will snick into the next higher gear when you give the throttle a quick chop... regardless of what you do with the clutch.

NOTE: if you are saying to not let up on the gas at all... then I say that's another recipe for damaging/wearing parts. I used to shift that way my first year of racing.

correct, I don't chop throttle, granted I'm not racing, but I have over 100k on my SV, I haven't damaged anything yet inless your talking about wearing out shift linkage, I did have to replace the linkage parts at about 90k, as well as clutch perch, lever & cable, but I think I woulda had to do that no matter what method of shifting I use, I replaced my original clutch springs and fibres @ 102k, still have the original steels

I use this method for upshifting and for downshifting for more power, when I am downshifting for braking, I pull clutch completley in, I do not blip throttle, (keep it cracked a bit so it's off idle) and slip clutch to smooth the shift

[TTD]

Originally posted by RandyO
correct, I don't chop throttle,

I use this method for upshifting and for downshifting for more power,

I am not sure you would be any faster with this method rather than a quick throttle chop.

By using the clutch, your engine revs go up slightly when the clutch comes in, and then the clutch plates are used to slow the engine back down to the wheel speed.

By using the throttle, you don't have any mismatch, per se.

But if it works for you... that's cool.

[benVFR]

Originally posted by RandyO


I use this method for upshifting and for downshifting for more power, when I am downshifting for braking, I pull clutch completley in, I do not blip throttle, (keep it cracked a bit so it's off idle) and slip clutch to smooth the shift

Hey if you want more power you could always fix that super-rich jetting & go back to the stock gearing. (or even lower)

[RandyO]

Originally posted by 35racer
I am not sure you would be any faster with this method rather than a quick throttle chop.

By using the clutch, your engine revs go up slightly when the clutch comes in, and then the clutch plates are used to slow the engine back down to the wheel speed.

By using the throttle, you don't have any mismatch, per se.

But if it works for you... that's cool.

who said anything about faster? it's smoother, I ride a lot of gravel and limited traction situations, snow & ice in winter, cold pavement, I aint afraid to shift mid corner either if I want to be in a different gear. it's all about not disrupting the traction of my contact patch

[TTD]

You mentioned you do it for more "power" -

I translated that to wanting to go faster...

sorry...

[RandyO]

Originally posted by 35racer
You mentioned you do it for more "power" -

I translated that to wanting to go faster...

sorry...

like when your going up a hill and your engine starts to lug, so you downshift, and ya, sometimes the purpose is to go faster to pass a cage

when I ride I try to keep my revs between 5-6k so I have engine braking capability and revs enuf to have power on demand. I try stan in the correct gear to do my speed control with the throttle as much as I can

[oreo_n2]

arguing with Randy is like mud wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty, frustrated and tired and after a while you realize the pig kinda likes it!

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by oreo_n2
arguing with Randy is like mud wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty, frustrated and tired and after a while you realize the pig kinda likes it!

[RandyO]

Originally posted by oreo_n2
arguing with Randy is like mud wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty, frustrated and tired and after a while you realize the pig kinda likes it!

I didn't realize I was in an arguement, just tryin to splain my riding style and the reasons for it, I don't do track, (makes no sence to me to go round in circle on the same course) most of my riding is work related on rural roads mid week, mid day. I figure if I can stay up without crashing on snow & ice, gravel etc, as much as I do, 25k+ miles/year I must have some techniques that work, regardless of what you might read in keith Code or Nick I.

[TTD]

Originally posted by RandyO
I don't do track, (makes no sence to me to go round in circle on the same course)

Hmmm... new domain name?


www.NASCAR Track Days.com

[oreo_n2]

Originally posted by RandyO
I didn't realize I was in an arguement, just tryin to splain my riding style and the reasons for it, I don't do track, (makes no sence to me to go round in circle on the same course) most of my riding is work related on rural roads mid week, mid day. I figure if I can stay up without crashing on snow & ice, gravel etc, as much as I do, 25k+ miles/year I must have some techniques that work, regardless of what you might read in keith Code or Nick I.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Argue \Ar"gue\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Argued; p. pr. & vb. n.
Arguing.] [OE. arguen, F. arguer, fr. L. argutare, freq. of
arguere to make clear; from the same root as E. argent.]
1. To invent and offer reasons to support or overthrow a
proposition, opinion, or measure; to use arguments; to
reason.



note, this of course is not the only definition or use of the word
i'm just messing with ya randy!

In the immortal words of ferris bueller, "Don't take life too seriously, you could miss it!"

[Paul_E_D]

Guys, has anyone here ever damaged a tranny from clutchless downshifting? Has anyone rebuilt a motor that had this damage? How do you identify/verify it?

There is a lot of voodoo being spoken here.

I never use the clutch on the track. True, I ride a 125. The gearbox is absolutely pristine. No signs of wear on the teeth or dogs whatsoever. It is my understanding that straight cut gearboxes (which all of our bikes have) are not generally damaged by clutchless downshifts. In fact, they put these into race cars specifically for that reason.

I have used the technique on other bikes on the track (out of habit) and they all downshifted very smoothly without the clutch.

I'm not sayin there aren't crappy trannys out there that wear out quickly in the racing environment Cough*YamahaandKawasaki*Cough but clutchless shifting is not usually the culprit. I believe poor bushing material and tolerances are often to blame.

I'm also NOT saying this is the smoothest way to downshift on every bike.

Just offering another datapoint and asking if this is real, or old wisdom that people can't let go of?

[Kham]

testing 1 2 3... just checkin what's going on?

just wanna say i remember asking about this 2 yrs ago and tht the Keith Code book doesn't talk about it no.


sorry to show up like this.

[SWEET_Z]

Originally posted by RandyO
when I downshift, I don't blip to match revs, I slip clutch, much smoother and easier for me. and I think I have smoothness figured out pretty good, I ride on snow & ice, and wear my front sprocket down till all the teeth are gone

This is my approach too. In the car or on the bike I use the clutch to brake probably as much as I use the actual brakes. Esspecially if I am cornering and not planning on coming to a complete stop.

I think this may cause some extra wear on the clutch though. My car clutches never last more than 40-50k miles.

[RandyO]

Originally posted by SWEET_Z
This is my approach too. In the car or on the bike I use the clutch to brake probably as much as I use the actual brakes. Esspecially if I am cornering and not planning on coming to a complete stop.

I think this may cause some extra wear on the clutch though. My car clutches never last more than 40-50k miles.

I do it in my bimmer too, I have no idea how many miles I get on a clutch in my cage, it had 275k when I bought it, how many miles on clutch I dunno, but I have 315k on it now and clutch is still fine, I replaced my original SV clutch @ 102k, wet clutches can take the slipping, cause I slip the bike a LOT

[SWEET_Z]

Hmm, the clutch must be getting abuse in other areas then.

[Paul_E_D]

Well, I got some input from some car racers. They mostly brake with their left foot and downshift without the cutch. Their gears are heavier and spin faster than a bike's making it more difficult and risky.

Some guys seem able to do it without wearing things out, and others have problems.

I'm guessing the same would hold true on bikes. If your good at blipping the throttle and timing your shifts, it likely does no harm. If you suck at it, you may encounter problems.

I wouldn't see any value in this for the street, but having one less control to operate at race pace frees up some of your focus for other things.

[hohum]

Originally posted by Paul_E_D
Well, I got some input from some car racers. They mostly brake with their left foot and downshift without the cutch. Their gears are heavier and spin faster than a bike's making it more difficult and risky.

Some guys seem able to do it without wearing things out, and others have problems.

I'm guessing the same would hold true on bikes. If your good at blipping the throttle and timing your shifts, it likely does no harm. If you suck at it, you may encounter problems.

I wouldn't see any value in this for the street, but having one less control to operate at race pace frees up some of your focus for other things.

Yes, this is definitely common practice in race cars... HOWEVER, even in a car, this is VERY TOUCHY. You have to really know your engine/gears well in order to pull it off smoothly. The risk of upsetting your suspension is far too great if you can't do it smoothly. As a former track driver in my car, I definitely consider it an 'advanced' technique, one which I still am not entirely comfortable with.... (many an instructor has told me "don't do that again", so maybe I'm just a weenie) it can lead to serious ass pucker situations if botched.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by hohum
Yes, this is definitely common practice in race cars... HOWEVER, even in a car, this is VERY TOUCHY. You have to really know your engine/gears well in order to pull it off smoothly. The risk of upsetting your suspension is far too great if you can't do it smoothly. As a former track driver in my car, I definitely consider it an 'advanced' technique, one which I still am not entirely comfortable with.... (many an instructor has told me "don't do that again", so maybe I'm just a weenie) it can lead to serious ass pucker situations if botched.

werd, most of the guys i know, including myself, just use heel/toe downshifting instead of doin it clutchless.

[oreo_n2]

i am not a car racer at all... explain to me, what exactly does the term heel toe shifting mean? heel on brake... toe on gas, hit both and pray?

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by oreo_n2
i am not a car racer at all... explain to me, what exactly does the term heel toe shifting mean? heel on brake... toe on gas, hit both and pray?

yup, you're on the right track, just got the foot placment backwards...

under acceleration goin into a corner you let off the gas, get on the clutch w/ your left foot & use your right foot to brake (either w/ your toe or the instep or ball of your foot) and use the other 1/2 of your foot (outside or heel) to blip the throttle to rev-match. It's exactly the same premise we use on the bike when we're braking & throttle blipping at the same time w/ our right hand

some cars it's easier to do it than others... for example, in my old bimmer ('87 325) it's pretty easy cuz of the placment of the pedals... but in my buddy's Audi A4 it's pretty tough & takes some more getting used to.

[Paul_E_D]

I've never had trouble on a (track) bike using clutchless downshifts. It's not as tough as it is in a car. The gears are lighter and the ratios closer.

It is tough to do it smoothly when you aren't going all out.

On the track you have brake markers, shift points, and your revs are virtually identical each lap. there are a lot less variables. shifting down at the right time without the clutch seems MORE predictable to me than shifting down with the clutch in and letting it out as you enter the turn. What if you hit nuetral? or take one too many gears?

All my big pucker moments have come using the clutch.

I haven't done this on a 600, but I have chatted with Will E. about it and he has largely the same reasons and results as I do. He IS fast despite Willow being a small club. He runs lap time close to Ulrich and Haskovec and other pros on the big track.

[richw]

I guess i'm surprised.

If you were at the limits of adhesion and banged a downshift wouldn't that give you a highside ?

Break the rear loose
Rear end starts to come around
engine matches speed
rear tire hooks up
You get spit over the fence in the classic flying W

[OreoGaborio]

Originally posted by richw
I guess i'm surprised.

If you were at the limits of adhesion and banged a downshift wouldn't that give you a highside ?

Break the rear loose
Rear end starts to come around
engine matches speed
rear tire hooks up
You get spit over the fence in the classic flying W

see that's what i've been thinkin all along, but i guess if it's done right it's smooth as buttah... that's what i'm bein told by those who actually do it

[RandyO]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by richw
I guess i'm surprised.

If you were at the limits of adhesion and banged a downshift wouldn't that give you a highside ?

Break the rear loose
Rear end starts to come around
engine matches speed
rear tire hooks up
You get spit over the fence in the classic flying W
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by OreoGaborio
see that's what i've been thinkin all along, but i guess if it's done right it's smooth as buttah... that's what i'm bein told by those who actually do it

I forget sometimes I can prolly get away with some manuvers that would be dangerous to other riders

example, 150 lb rider riding 450 lb(wet) sport bike
rider to bike ratio vs me 300lbs with gear on 400 lb wet SV , kinda like the light weight rider on a trials bike or average rider on a dirt bike