clutchless DOWNshifting

[richw]

MY sneaky line in there was
Limit of adhesion that they aren't at

I am point and shoot

Brake too hard
Go slow and turn
Point straight at next target
DOwnshift and grab a handfull

And thats why I have a liter bike where purchasing criteria was mid range torque.

I'ld use the clutch just cause it seems nicer on the equipment. My dirt bike I usually bang the shift before it boggs out.

PS I regret to say that I have put 4 people in the weeds (only one hurt) by slowing in the turn (trailbraking). They can brake and they can turn but they can't do both at the same time.
Thus point and shoot safer for all.

[Paul_E_D]

At the limits of adhesion you shouldn't be bangin anything! Clutch or no clutch. You have to relax and let the bike handle that situation!

Having shift points allows you to KNOW for sure that shifting down WON'T put you on your head. This is not something you guess at. You practice it. If you shift a little too early and it slides, you move you shift point forward. You're mostly straight up and down when downshifting, so a little slide won't kill you.

If a shift point works on one lap, it will work on a thousand laps. The same every time. No drama.

You guys are acting like your gonna bang shifts any old time and that it will somehow be different from one lap to the next. That's STREET riding. We're not talkin about that here.

[richw]

Paul I know you know what your talkin about

I thought he asked originally about doin it in a turn where he was already at least goin as fast as he could and asked if it would upset the bike

Yes me be street not track

[RandyO]

Originally posted by Paul_E_D
At the limits of adhesion you shouldn't be bangin anything! Clutch or no clutch. You have to relax and let the bike handle that situation!

Having shift points allows you to KNOW for sure that shifting down WON'T put you on your head. This is not something you guess at. You practice it. If you shift a little too early and it slides, you move you shift point forward. You're mostly straight up and down when downshifting, so a little slide won't kill you.

If a shift point works on one lap, it will work on a thousand laps. The same every time. No drama.

You guys are acting like your gonna bang shifts any old time and that it will somehow be different from one lap to the next. That's STREET riding. We're not talkin about that here.

?? I thought we were talking about shifting ?? isn't that done both on street an track, isnt tires tires and pavement pavement , forgetting about road hazards, limits of traction and way bike reacts is same street or track, isn't that the reason you promote track days to improve street riding ?????

btw, I have never participated in track day, never will, I don't think it helps street riding skills as much as street riding and street riding only cost me gasoline

[TTD]

This is definitely a point that Paul and I differ.

I prefer to get my downshifting done as early as possible and then start leaning.

If I'm coming up to a left hand corner (like the bowl), I've already done my downshifts and have my foot back on the peg long before I start leaning it in.... but I am still braking and I still have the clutch partially in (because my rear wheel is still going much faster than the gear I am in)

Again... I guess it's two schools of thought and obviously they both work.

[Paul_E_D]

I don't advocate clutchless shifting on the street. This discussion is about clutchless downshifting. other techniques obviously work fine.

I was trying to outline why it works on the track, and how I find it more precise than holding the clutch in shifting and then letting it out.

Tony and I have similar riding styles, but apparently different shifting techniques. I know that a variety of techniques work. I'm just answering the original question, because I happen to use the technique.

FWIW I disagree with you Randy. Track riding has helped my street riding from the first trackday I did.

It is more expensive though...

[RandyO]

Originally posted by Paul_E_D
I don't advocate clutchless shifting on the street. This discussion is about clutchless downshifting. other techniques obviously work fine.

I was trying to outline why it works on the track, and how I find it more precise than holding the clutch in shifting and then letting it out.

Tony and I have similar riding styles, but apparently different shifting techniques. I know that a variety of techniques work. I'm just answering the original question, because I happen to use the technique.

FWIW I disagree with you Randy. Track riding has helped my street riding from the first trackday I did.

It is more expensive though...

Paul, don't get me wrong, I think track days help with street riding techniques, just not as much as actual seat time on the street where you experience street conditions, I know that the track is prolly safer than streets in urban and suburban areas, but not rural areas mid day mid week (at least where I ride) there is more traffic on the track with 20 riders than I see in a week

[ancosta]

Originally posted by RandyO
btw, I have never participated in track day, never will, I don't think it helps street riding skills as much as street riding and street riding only cost me gasoline

FWIW - I can say that I learned more in 1 track day than I did learned between miles 3000-5000 of my riding 'career' last year. I got to push the bike harder than ever before without the 'creeping death' feeling that comes when I mix speed and agressive lean angles with cars, deer, potholes, etc.

When downshifting on some of the downhill turns at the track I managed to get the back end a bit 'greasy' with some poorly executed downshifts. I think the engine braking from a V twin amplifies the effect of poor technique. Also I wonder if I run tires with more grip, e.g. pilot powers vs. D220s, if the rear gets sloppy is it more likely to highside (because it is faster to hook back up)?

I would think that to be able to pull off clutchless downshifts (such that it improves speed/lap times) one would need to be a very advanced track rider.

[RandyO]

wait a minute... you don't advocate clutchless shifting on the street, but you do on the track, and at the same time you advocate track riding to hone your skills on the street????

[TTD]

Originally posted by RandyO
wait a minute... you don't advocate clutchless shifting on the street, but you do on the track, and at the same time you advocate track riding to hone your skills on the street????

I don't see a problem with those statements

[RandyO]

Originally posted by ancosta
FWIW - I can say that I learned more in 1 track day than I did learned between miles 3000-5000 of my riding 'career' last year. I got to push the bike harder than ever before without the 'creeping death' feeling that comes when I mix speed and agressive lean angles with cars, deer, potholes, etc.

When downshifting on some of the downhill turns at the track I managed to get the back end a bit 'greasy' with some poorly executed downshifts. I think the engine braking from a V twin amplifies the effect of poor technique. Also I wonder if I run tires with more grip, e.g. pilot powers vs. D220s, if the rear gets sloppy is it more likely to highside (because it is faster to hook back up)?

I would think that to be able to pull off clutchless downshifts (such that it improves speed/lap times) one would need to be a very advanced track rider.

Only street riding will give you the skills to annticipate where cages, potholes, sand & wildlefe will be, anticipation of hazards is the BEST street skill that you can have , improving lap times does not help street skills, learning to be smooth rather than panic improves your street skills

[RandyO]

now that I have completely bastardized this thread

[TTD]

Originally posted by RandyO
Only street riding will give you the skills to annticipate where cages, potholes, sand & wildlefe will be, anticipation of hazards is the BEST street skill that you can have , improving lap times does not help street skills, learning to be smooth rather than panic improves your street skills

Agree... and disagree.

The first two statements are correct, but improving lap times can ABSOLUTELY help street skills.

To improve your lap times, you MUST become a better rider in all areas of bike handling.

When you get back on the street, you now ADD to the mix the other skills mentioned in your first sentence.

Having BOTH skillsets makes a good street rider.

That does not mean a person cannot get both skillsets solely by riding on the street.

My belief is that you can get the bike handling skill set faster, and probably to a higher level, on the the track.

[benVFR]

Randy can't you at least agree there are a subset of riding skills that you can learn far faster on the track then the street?

And then you can take those skills out onto the street and combine them with the situational awareness skills that you learn on the street?

[RandyO]

Originally posted by 35racer


My belief is that you can get the bike handling skill set faster, and probably to a higher level, on the the track.

no doubt you will learn faster, higher level, no, I think a lower level cause you don't have the road hazards does riding on the track help with what line you take thru a gravel hazard? and I won't even get into winter riding where I think you aquire the best skills , but I completely disagree that fast lap times on the track helps steet skills unless your idea of street riding is riding at illegal speeds

[TTD]

Originally posted by RandyO
does riding on the track help with what line you take thru a gravel hazard?

The line?... probably not.

What to do with the bike being all squirrely under you?... ABSOLUTELY!

Just wondering... Have you ridden on the track for any period?

[RandyO]

Originally posted by 35racer
The line?... probably not.

What to do with the bike being all squirrely under you?... ABSOLUTELY!

Just wondering... Have you ridden on the track for any period?

If you take the right line, the bike won't be squirlley

never been on a track with a bike (I have been on a Nascar 1/3 mile oval in a cage but I'm sure thats not what your talking about)

I have to say I got my best education on cornering etc @ Deals Gap & surrounding area

[bigred875]

Originally posted by RandyO
no doubt you will learn faster, higher level, no, I think a lower level cause you don't have the road hazards does riding on the track help with what line you take thru a gravel hazard? and I won't even get into winter riding where I think you aquire the best skills , but I completely disagree that fast lap times on the track helps steet skills unless your idea of street riding is riding at illegal speeds

I learned more in the penguion school then all of my years of riding combined...

From day one you learn to watchout for hazards...hell you learn the the first time you flip your peddle bike over a storm drain....but at the track you learn to handle your bike in an efficient manner and you can avaiod the hazards a lot easier and safer....which results in better street riding...

I agree that you only gain street skills by riding on the track....but you gain way more motorcycle handleing skills on the track....hands down...

If you cant handle your bike on clean avement you'll never make it through the gravel...

[TTD]

Originally posted by RandyO
never been on a track with a bike

Hmmm.... doesn't quite seem right to be discussing the "track/no track" thing.

Most of us that are taking the opposing view from you have actually done both (street and track).

[SSearchVT]

To add to Bigreds statement. Experience with a dirtbike on a MX track or in the woods also helps out in street riding. MX has been described as a controlled crash (sometimes uncontrolled). The skills developed there can very easily be carried over onto a streetbike when things go wrong.

[oreo_n2]

I Have learned a BOAT LOAD in the last year with all my track days and dirt bike crashes!!! It has carried over to the street quite well!

Randy, you should do a track day!

[SSearchVT]

The main thing I learned from dirt bike crashes is how to tuck and roll, and then get into the fetal position as fast as possible....

[Paul_E_D]

Randy, I've actually never advised anyone to forego the clutch at a trackday. It's not worth it to the average rider because it has limited street applications.

Somewhere back in this thread (the first post I think!) oreo asked a question specifically about clutchless downshifting. A bunch of people advised against it, and I offered my experience as a counterpoint.

You jumped in and made this a using the clutch technique discussion. That's a good idea for another thread.



Riding the track is like learning in fast forward!

[ancosta]

Originally posted by RandyO
wait a minute... you don't advocate clutchless shifting on the street, but you do on the track, and at the same time you advocate track riding to hone your skills on the street????

I clutchless up-shifted at the track, and that seemed to be fine. I did it because several experienced racers advocated it as a reasonable on-track way of (up)shifting. If they didn't I wouldn't have done it. None of them told me to clutchless downshift, and several make the point of saying "do" use the clutch for downshifts. As far as doing it on the street, if I wanted to completely boot ass sure I could do it, but I really haven't.

Beyond that it sounds like benefits of clutchless down-shifting seems to be reserved for high end riders, and on high end hardware (e.g. slipper clutch). I worry about that stuff when and if I get there...

What I mean about street benefits of track days is that track riding helps me ride better - wherever that may be. I am a firm believer that in order to truly run a machine like a car, bike, etc - you need to know what the limits are of the machine, and what it is like on *both* sides of those limits. Frankly because I am so new at this, I am at much higher risk for getting hurt or killed. For example, I have never had the experience of backing it in around a corner, handling a tankslapper, or locking up the front wheel. I am sure if I keep riding at >80% of my skill level that I'll encouter one or more of these scenarios soon enough. While of course I don't want to crash & burn, I think my paradigm will help me learn how to address these issues in a closed environment so the first time I deal with it, my odds of not killing or maiming myself are better. Oh, and it was fun to ride the track too

At the same time, I don't think that being good on the track mitigates the need for good street riding skills/judgement, and that part only comes with street riding experience & education. In addition to taking it easy as I get back on the street, I will be reading the 2nd Proficient Motorcycling book - but not before skim the 1st one I read last year. I'll also be signing up for the experienced MSF course.

If there is one thing I think the track makes worse for street riding is that once you see what you & the bike can do, it can be hard not to use it on the street. As I go into 2nd year riding, I figure I am at more odds for street accidents because my confidence is way up - but are my skills?

[RandyO]

COT to tobcat bridge & back = 636 turns (318 different turns) in 40 min compared to 53 laps @ Loudon's 12 turns .... I think I know where fast forward is

....but at the track you learn to handle your bike in an efficient manner and you can avaiod the hazards a lot easier and safer....which results in better street riding...

is it safer to avoid the hazard? or take a clean line thru it? (if possible)