The fine art of turning ?

[akira700]

So now that I am thinking about tomm's Tony's Track Day
I thought I would throw this out there.

I'm always analyzing my riding. One thing that I have noticed
recently just from riding in the street is that turns feel
much better if I can keep some weight on the front tire until
the apex. So I guess like trail braking. Anyway I find the bike feels more
planted if the weight is biased toward the front or the rear as upon exit.

In the past I would get my braking done, tip in, head toward
the apex then gas it out. I have found that the point from my finishing
the braking and the apex feels disjointed, like I'm coasting with out good feel or traction.

So in contrast to this I have tried sort of slipping the brake off gradually
as I tip in then feed on the gas as the brake tapers off. This seems to make the front tire grab better and the bike weight transfer is better and have the feeling of faster entry speed.

Is this normal? Does most of you all advanced riders do this? Or is my bike setup wrong ? Discuss :

[Evil_Weasel]

trail braking is a subjective thing. some people do alot of it some people don't.

try not waiting till the apex to start rolling on the power. the sooner you start applying power the sooner you will get your weight transfer correct for maximum stability. personlly i like to start on the throttle right after my turn in is made and my line is set. it doesn't take much, just enough to transfer the weight bias rearward.

also i try and use the front brake and throttle as 1 control. as i release the brake, i start to apply throttle. keeps the suspension from moving around as much and makes the weight transfer smoother. it'll take some one smarter than me to explain exactly why and how it works.

there should be no coasting. on the gas or on the brake.

disclaimer: i am by no means an expert and i'm sure some one will be along soon to point out how wrong i am.

[The Snowman]

Doesn't this go against the popular "Twist of the Wrist" philosophy of 60/40 rear/front?

I tend to fee more confident in the corners if I'm not on the front too much.

Maybe I just suck at riding.

[Paul_E_D]

Yes, weighting the front is important to get that front tire to bite from turn in to full lean. If you coast, the front will feel flighty. Getting your bodyweight forward is another way to acheive this. trailbraking only works for corners where you need to slow down at entry.

the 60/40 bias is good once you've reached full lean and are hooked into the turn. This could happen before the apex for sure. Consider the quick-turn technique. The quicker you go from upright to full lean, the less time you need to weight the front for grip, and the more time you can weight the rear with THROTTLE

[Evil_Weasel]

i'm not gonna lie, the quick turn thing still baffles me at times. i understand the concept and logic of it. the execution i struggle with.

[akira700]

Evilweasel you said that you get on the gas earlier in the turn.
That would just a maintainance throttle (F40/R60 bias) I would guess right?
Cause if you are getting on the gas harder than that then
technically I would say that that is early apexing.

Isnt the apex defined as when you get on the gas harder than just
maintainance throttle? Or when you are at max lean angle which
would coincide with getting on the gas as you stand the bike up?

Paul, I cant seem to affect the weight balance that much as to
really feel it on my 600. Maybe you thinking back to your 125cc
expereince? Can you really get the front to grab better on the 6R
by moving forward?

Anyway looking forward to experimenting some on the track.
But I dont want to see folks lowsiding because I was talking about braking
near the apex ! Remember its your ride !

[RyanNicholson]

i go by the 100% rule...where a tire can only take 100% of pressure, you come as close to it as you can without breaking it. Pressure being 1) breaking, 2) Lean angle, and 3) throttle.

for instance when you are breaking into a corner you're at 100% Breaking pressure.

as you start to lean, its 80% break, 20% lean......50% break, 50% lean....then you get to 100% lean angle at the apex, where you start to roll on the throttle as you stand the bike up, so you're 80% lean, 20% throttle....50% lean, 50% throttle, etc.

if at any point you're say 50% lean, 60% throttle, you break the 100% rule and you're off to the parts store.

i think loading the front end going into the corner isn't only giving the tire more bite, but it also straightens out the rake slightly, which might account for the easier turn in? I'm not 100% sure.


just my ramblings

[Paul_E_D]

Apexing and getting on the gas are two unrelated things. The apex is simply the center of the arc you ride. You can coast and still apex, or even hold WOT into a turn and apex, it all depends on the track.

Early apex is if you the rider center your arc before the center of the arc of the racetrack (or the common line). You do this by turning in early. Sometimes it allows you to shorten the racetrack. Sometimes it bites you because you can't open the gas early enough on the exit.

Back to the topic of quickturn. It doesn't work in EVERY situation, but most. Just slam the bike down as fast as you can. You can brake later, turn in later, and get on the gas sooner, all while spending less time at Max lean. It also reduces drastically the time spent trailbraking, which is a momentum killer.

Akira, Yes, you can most definitely effect the handling of any bike by getting your weight forward. Turns 7-10 are perfect examples of where you need to really get forward on the bike, because you won't be braking here.

[akira700]

Paul, Ryan cool thanks...

Yeah the 100% thing is cool but its really abstract.
Its not like I have gauges that tell me mid turn:
78 braking
20 lean
2 throttle

Maybe you guys do after racing for awhile.

Anyway going by feel is scary as you get near 100% as I like most
(not all though) others dont really want to go down to learn what
110% is.

Well I'm gonna try and see if I can be aware of my body position
fore and aft some.

Its alot to think about.
Still working on my body moving side to side.
So all in good time. We have many track days ahead!

[Paul_E_D]

Ryan, this idea has some merit in explaing how to learn to trailbrake, but in reality, for me, it's false. I've held near max brake pressure to near max lean on many occasions. It all depends on set-up, tire grip, rider technique, weight etc.

In the wildest situations, I have stood the bike on it's nose and leaned over at the same time hitting the rider next to me in the shoulder with my rear wheel at the apex of T3!

I try not to worry about the WHYs, but to practice the fundamental techniques so much that I can begin to explore the limits of how far I can push. In the end, the limit is WAY beyond what I ever imagined. I never praticed anything I would call "advanced" technique though...Just good basics taken as far as I could.

i go by the 100% rule...where a tire can only take 100% of pressure, you come as close to it as you can without breaking it. Pressure being 1) breaking, 2) Lean angle, and 3) throttle.

for instance when you are breaking into a corner you're at 100% Breaking pressure.

as you start to lean, its 80% break, 20% lean......50% break, 50% lean....then you get to 100% lean angle at the apex, where you start to roll on the throttle as you stand the bike up, so you're 80% lean, 20% throttle....50% lean, 50% throttle, etc.

if at any point you're say 50% lean, 60% throttle, you break the 100% rule and you're off to the parts store.

i think loading the front end going into the corner isn't only giving the tire more bite, but it also straightens out the rake slightly, which might account for the easier turn in? I'm not 100% sure.


just my ramblings

[RyanNicholson]

Ryan, this idea has some merit in explaing how to learn to trailbrake, but in reality, for me, it's false. I've held near max brake pressure to near max lean on many occasions. It all depends on set-up, tire grip, rider technique, weight etc.

yea i hear ya....that isn't something i actually think about on the track of course, its just kinda how it was explained to me when i first started racing. just a guide line to put the process into words i suppose

but i do things in a similar way to you...just practicing the fundamentals and keep finding out how far limits can be pushed. and i agree, its way beyond what i ever could have imagined (and i have a LONG way to go still haha).

good input though, thanks

[Crash Dummy Denno]

[QUOTE=Paul_E_D;383132]Back to the topic of quickturn. It doesn't work in EVERY situation, but most. Just slam the bike down as fast as you can. You can brake later, turn in later, and get on the gas sooner, all while spending less time at Max lean. It also reduces drastically the time spent trailbraking, which is a momentum killer.QUOTE]

damn right - you'll actually learn as you try to brake later into turns - its almost like an automatic reaction to the situation - meaning if you dont quickturn you're going to miss all your marks in a given turn - (or have a chat with the ground, but hopefully just run it wide)

[Paul_E_D]

Yeah Ryan, it's certainly a useful learning tool. It will keep you from crashing too much and you do kind of get a feel for that relationship of brake pressure/lean angle ratio with practice. But in reality, the ratio is not a direct proportion like that.

[Kham]

doesn't trail braking mostly works on high speed corner? otherwise "get on it ASAP"

you have to coast on decreasing radius. "new riders take coasting like a duck to water" -

"quick flick"

[Paul_E_D]

coasting is never going to help you feel in control of the motorcycle. Decreasing radius turns on a track are where you need to trail brake the most. Your speed through the first part needs to be higher than your speed at the apex, thus the need to brake while leaned over.

Open sweepers require momentum, so trail braking is not as helpful here.

[RyanNicholson]

we need more discussions like this on here

[akira700]

ok Paul

Take NHIS Turn 3 for example. That seems to me to be a turn
where you need to slow down toward the apex, yes?
As opposed to Turn 1 where its more of a throttle on turn.

Do you then in T3 trail brake? I feel like I need to there,
but I'm still searching for the good approach to that turn.

If not is there at place at Louden you think trail braking is necessary?

[Paul_E_D]

Yes, trailing the front into T3 is helpful. T1 is also a trail braker, along with 6, 9, and 11.

no brakes: 1a, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12

[Crash Dummy Denno]

ok Paul

Take NHIS Turn 3 for example. That seems to me to be a turn
where you need to slow down toward the apex, yes?
As opposed to Turn 1 where its more of a throttle on turn.

Do you then in T3 trail brake? I feel like I need to there,
but I'm still searching for the good approach to that turn.

If not is there at place at Louden you think trail braking is necessary?

hmmm

if turn 3 was reversed maybe?

i could be completely wrong but i approach this turn very similar to 1 in that its a a straight away and i get my braking and downshiftin done before tip in and then im INCREASINGLY on the gas

[Crash Dummy Denno]

Yes, trailing the front into T3 is helpful. T1 is also a trail braker, along with 6, 9, and 11.

no brakes: 1a, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12

no kidding

[akira700]

Yes, trailing the front into T3 is helpful. T1 is also a trail braker, along with 6, 9, and 11.

no brakes: 1a, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12

This is no fair Paul.

Your approach speed is not human so I can't compare
tactics. But I get the idea. And will be waiting till tomm.

Things that you brake for I'm going so slow already that braking is not
really necessary. But I'll remember this list. Its a good yard stick.

[Crash Dummy Denno]

This is no fair Paul.

Your approach speed is not human so I can't compare
tactics. But I get the idea. And will be waiting till tomm.

Things that you brake for I'm going so slow already that braking is not
really necessary. But I'll remember this list. Its a good yard stick.

haha +1

[Paul_E_D]

Try using easy brakes in these spots and you may find you're ready to roll-off a little later... Gradually move your roll-off forward til you need at least moderate trail braking in these zones... Better to practice these things the right way, all be it slowly, than to be totally on the wrong page when your speed comes up.

[RyanNicholson]

Try using easy brakes in these spots and you may find you're ready to roll-off a little later... Gradually move your roll-off forward til you need at least moderate braking in these zones... Better to practice these things the right way, all be it slowly, than to be totally on the wrong page when your speed comes up.

thats good advice. try it the right way even if it feels wierd...keep doing it the right way and next thing you know you'll be flyin around the track and wont even realize it.

[Kham]

don't know who to listen to here but i'v been practicing the Keiths Code way on the street.

how i understand it is basically everything is done before "quick flick" unless you're going in hot therefore late breaking.