How to handle selling a bike you have not registered yourself?

[laterider]

Hello to all.

I'm a semi-retired (not by choice) rider and bike lover. I have around a half dozen bikes... all singles... from street to dirt to trials that I ride often, in season, here in Connecticut. Since I have some time on my hands I thought I'd take on restoring a few old bikes and then sell them.

Here is my question. I'd rather not have to register each of these bikes what with the expense of doing so... registration fees, sales tax, property tax, insurance... if I will only have them until they are ready to be sold off. I'm sure there are others out there who do or have done this so I'm looking for some guidance on what the proper procedure is so that the buyer has no issues with registering the bike.

Thanks for the help and again... this is Connecticut I'm talking about.

[aldend123]

Do you have title, certificate of origin, or previous owner's registration or bill of sales? FYI, if your buyer is from another state, different rules apply. In fact, you might even learn you want to target buyers from a state with less bureaucratic requirements if you never titled these vehicles.

[laterider]

Do you have title, certificate of origin, or previous owner's registration or bill of sales?

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that I have what I need to register any particular bike from the previous owner. I'm not new to this having had to do it many times for bikes, cars and trucks I have owned.

My question has to do with selling that bike to someone else not having registered it myself. What needs to be done or not done to make that happen so that person... no matter where they are from... can register it with no issues?

Let me add this point. Connecticut law states that any bike made prior to 20 years from the date of new registration does not need a title. The old law stated prior to 1981. That was changed in 2015... thank goodness for that! So any bike I may purchase made after 1996 does not need a title to be registered in Connecticut.

[aldend123]

The simple answer to your question is if you have the title to the vehicle, then I think it's reasonable to assume any buyer from any of the 50 states will be able to register it. Without that, each state is different. In MA, no title and no prior registration and it's usually considered a paperweight though I believe there are ways to get it done which most people don't consider reasonably viable.

So the criteria to register in MA:
The completed RMV-1 must be accompanied by one of the following documents:

A manufacturers Certificate of Origin (new vehicles only), or
The previous owner’s Certificate of Title, Dealer Re-Assignment form if applicable, or
The previous registration and bill of sale for vehicles that are exempt because of their age.

[aldend123]

And because I'm a curious person, here's the CT information which sounds a lot like MA:DMV: Proof Of Ownership Documents
To get Proof of Ownership, which is required for new registration, they say you are not required to have a title for 20+ year old vehicles, but they also say they want previous registration. If I'm reading that correctly, it almost sounds like a riddle.

But this page makes me think they worded it awkwardly. The third bullet point sounds like they'll allow the Q-1 form as substitution.

[RandyO]

L So any bike I may purchase made after 1996 does not need a title to be registered in Connecticut.

I think you mean made before 1996

[jwm2k3]

Just make sure you have a title. Have the persone selling it to you sign their name on the back, leave the rest BLANK. This is whats commonly reffered to 'in the business' as an 'open title'

Let your buyer fill the rest of it out. Skipping you entirely. Good luck.

[ilikenapalm]

If the buyer section of the title is blank, like JWM said, just have the buyer put in their info and it's like you never even existed.

If you need to write up a bill of sale, it's not that hard to "contact the previous owner and have him sign your new bill of sale......." CT is not a stickler when it comes to signatures on paper.

If you have the title and both the buyer and seller information is filled out, you can get a Q1 - Supplemental Assignment of Ownership form from the CT DMV website. Fill that out and have the new owner sign it. It allows the title to be transferred to the new owner without the need to register the bike and get a new title for it.

[laterider]

If you need to write up a bill of sale, it's not that hard to "contact the previous owner and have him sign your new bill of sale......." CT is not a stickler when it comes to signatures on paper.

Let's stick with bikes 1996 and older for the time being. No title needed in CT.

I can see getting the prior owner to sign another bill of sale to become an issue for sure. Especially if I bought the bike at a MC show and the person was from out of state.

If I have the prior owners registration in hand why can't I create a new bill of sale with my name on it? All that shows is who sold the bike and the amount paid. Would this work the same as what was quoted above as an "open title"?

In other words, an open registration?

[ADA929]

If I have the prior owners registration in hand why can't I create a new bill of sale with my name on it? All that shows is who sold the bike and the amount paid.

I'm not exactly sure how that would play out if it went out of CT but at least in my dealings with RI, the purchaser of the bike would be on the hook for the sales tax for both transactions. Its ultimately an issue of taxation, not ownership. Title jumping means they don't get their cut for a sale. Your obvious options are to jump the title (not legal but hardly rare for motorcycles), Sell without paperwork (big hit in value), or get the paperwork squared away on your end before sale (cost of tax and DMV fees). Depending on the value of the motorcycles, getting everything in your name is the safest bet (unless other options look better to you....). Otherwise it'll be a tough sale.

[ilikenapalm]

You didn't read that correctly. Just make your own bill of sale and sign it as if you were the previous owner.

Also, if you have a signed bill of sale from the previous owner to you and you both signed it and did not leave anything "open," just write a letter with an explanation saying that you sold the bike before you registered it and are now transferring your ownership to the new guy. I've registered bikes with letters like that and it works fine. Fill out the Q1 - Supplemental Assignment of Ownership form as well. There's never too much paperwork that you can go to the DMV with.


edit: my post is for OP, not the dude above me

[laterider]

You didn't read that correctly. Just make your own bill of sale and sign it as if you were the previous owner.

I think I read this as forging his name and I'm not about to do that.

I can try emailing the DMV to get a formal reply. I have done that before and they always get back to me.

[ilikenapalm]

Lol, what bikes are you selling, and how much do you want for them?

[laterider]

I sent an email to DMV but my research leads me to believe it is not legal and cannot be done.

Bottom line. I'd be looking at a bill of $183 to insure, register and pay the taxes on just one small 200cc motorcycle so that I could work on it and try and resell it. I believe I have to register it within 60 days from the time I bought it or there is another fee involved.

There would also be a bill for the property tax for each year I hold on to it. At least one payment anyway even if I sold it within a year.

For those that say just flaunt the law... there is also the buyer to consider. What legitimate buyer will want to deal with someone selling a vehicle with another persons name on it.

Would you? Would you advise your son or daughter to do it?

Does not look like that promising a business venture, but like anything else in life, the educational aspect was worth the time.

[Kurlon]

Even without all that it's never been a promising business venture.

[ilikenapalm]

I sent an email to DMV but my research leads me to believe it is not legal and cannot be done.

Bottom line. I'd be looking at a bill of $183 to insure, register and pay the taxes on just one small 200cc motorcycle so that I could work on it and try and resell it. I believe I have to register it within 60 days from the time I bought it or there is another fee involved.

There would also be a bill for the property tax for each year I hold on to it. At least one payment anyway even if I sold it within a year.

For those that say just flaunt the law... there is also the buyer to consider. What legitimate buyer will want to deal with someone selling a vehicle with another persons name on it.

Would you? Would you advise your son or daughter to do it?

Does not look like that promising a business venture, but like anything else in life, the educational aspect was worth the time.

Drop the bike off at my house. I'll sell it for you for a commission fee of $183.

[aldend123]

Bottom line. I'd be looking at a bill of $183 to insure, register and pay the taxes on just one small 200cc motorcycle so that I could work on it and try and resell it. I believe I have to register it within 60 days from the time I bought it or there is another fee involved.

For those that say just flaunt the law... there is also the buyer to consider. What legitimate buyer will want to deal with someone selling a vehicle with another persons name on it.

I like the effort you're putting in trying to ensure the buyer will be able to register. But for lesser value vehicles, if you're patient, just list the bike and describe precisely what will come with the bike. The rest is 'not your problem'. You don't have to be dishonest, or conceal anything. Tell the facts. Bike not currently registered, no title, have previous owner's reg and will sign Bill of Sale, [insert VIN here].

For all you know, someone will buy it because they know a route to register it that will work for them (probably in another state), or because they're gonna ride it around a farm or at a track. Or maybe they're gonna swap it all in to an existing frame they have.

[laterider]

Even without all that it's never been a promising business venture.

I concur.

Well, I looked at it this way. I have the time and I know how to work on bikes. I can take a piece of crud bike and make it into something safe and fun to ride and not spend a ton of money doing it. Been there and done that more than once.

Look around and see what's out there for the first time beginning rider. Not all that much and what is out there needs lots of work. Sellers are not always completely honest, let's face it. Even some so-called licensed dealers are less than transparent. Take the one I recently bought a 2004 Ford Ranger from. These guys just want to move vehicles no matter what.

Someone selling good, fully functional and well tested smaller bikes would offer a great service to the newbie's. Just hard to do if I have to chop $200 off every sale. How much can one get before the buyer opts to look for new.

They just do not make those small starter bikes like they use to. Honda has their Grom 125cc for $3K... yikes! I've never even come close to paying that much for any (used) bike I've owned.

[laterider]

...Tell the facts. Bike not currently registered, no title, have previous owner's reg and will sign Bill of Sale...

I can see your point but all that's doing is passing the problem off to someone else.

You're assuming everyone out there knows the law and will be able to some how come up with a "workaround" like some of the folks on this forum claim to. I've spent the better part of two days on this to get the true, legal answer. Where does that leave the guy and his 18 year old son that comes to look at the bike. They're looking to me to provide them with a vehicle that's ready to register. So, what, I just stand there with my mouth zipped shut even though I know they're in for a world of hurt?

I cannot, in good conscience, do that to someone. At some point someone has to just say "no, I will not do that".

[aldend123]

Under 300cc, VT will not require a title, or previous registration, to register the bike. For smaller bikes, VT buyers should have no trouble. I thought RI had a similar option if it is older than X. There is some degree of liability that lies with a buyer to know their state's rules. You told them what it came with. I know some people will play that way. I'm not one of those people. I'd probably put it right in the ad that 'as is, it may not be register-able in CT. Buyer should consult with their insurance agent or local DMV/RMV beforehand'.

Another consideration if you're thinking about acquiring bikes to flip, your state/county/town may have some maximum you can buy/sell each year before you need to be considered a dealership.

This is starting to sound more like a rant than a question the deeper it goes, and if it makes you feel any better, I think we're all right there with you. It's all absurd, needlessly complicated, especially for the lowest price bracket vehicles. In the age of 're-use and re-cycle', it almost feels like we're encouraged to buy new instead of someone's old bike tucked in the back of the shed.

[ilikenapalm]

I can see your point but all that's doing is passing the problem off to someone else.

You're assuming everyone out there knows the law and will be able to some how come up with a "workaround" like some of the folks on this forum claim to. I've spent the better part of two days on this to get the true, legal answer. Where does that leave the guy and his 18 year old son that comes to look at the bike. They're looking to me to provide them with a vehicle that's ready to register. So, what, I just stand there with my mouth zipped shut even though I know they're in for a world of hurt?

I cannot, in good conscience, do that to someone. At some point someone has to just say "no, I will not do that".

Uhhh being up front and honest about the title situation is not the same as leaving someone with their dick in their hand when it comes time for them to register. You've gotten a lot of good advice on how to handle a sale.

You still haven't provided any details on the bikes you have. People will buy your shit and then figure out what needs to be done. It's not hard. You're fighting a moral battle that doesn't exist.

[jwm2k3]

I dont know why you are making this difficult for yourself. Forget registration. Some states dont accept that. All 50 accept a title. Get one when you buy it. Leave it open. Done.

[sandman]

its easy.

get a dealers license or make a deal with a local dealer.

fwiw: you should never purchase a vehicle from someone other than the person who's name is on the title.

[laterider]

I emailed the CT DMV for a clarification on the law. I asked what I had to do to sell a bike I bought but did not register. Here is the reply:

You will need the original bill of sale and registration along with form Q1 to your buyer.

I also asked if there was a time limit after purchasing a bike to either 1) register the bike in my name or 2) sell the bike to another. Here is the reply:

No, there is no time limit.

So it appears what Alden123 wrote in his reply, above, was on track with what is legally required.

So this a great news. I ordered some of these Q1 forms since they are 3-part carbon and cannot be downloaded. Looks like we can all now "go legit" by simply following the law.

[Imbeek]

Wow, that's a LOT different and more friendly to bike flippers than Massachusetts is...