Welcome to NESR! Most features of this site require registration, including replying to threads, sending private messages, starting new threads, and uploading files. Click here to register.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 59

Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

  1. #1
    Hypertarded
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    907

    Thumbs down Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!


    I have a feeling based on this info the Live Wire will NOT be HD's savior $30k with a 100 mile range

    Harley-Davidson's LiveWire Electric Motorcycle Will Retail For $29,000

    .... at Las Vegas' Consumer Electronics Showcase on Monday, the motorcycle company showed off its first ever pure electric bike.

    We caught glimpses of the company's sleek, LiveWire electric motorcycle late last year, and were quickly intrigued by everything so defiantly un-Harley-like about it.

    At the time, there were more questions about LiveWire than there were answers, but Harley has finally released details on the bike, which will reportedly retail for $29,000 when it company starts fulfilling orders in the fall.

    If anything, the LiveWire almost has more in common with a Model X: It goes 0 to 60 mph in 3.5 seconds. Because it's electric, twisting the throttle can instantly engage 100 percent of the bike's torque, .....There's also the question of range as well, since you cant just stop at the gas station. Thebike will travel 110 miles on a single charge, the company says.
    2019 LiveWire Electric Motorbike | Harley-Davidson USA

    What is the range of the LiveWire?

    The high-voltage battery, or RESS, provides an estimated 110 miles of range, measured using the MIC mixed-use cycle.

    Riding range estimates based on current SAE testing of LiveWire concept motorcycle. Actual riding range will vary based on several factors including weather and driving conditions.

    TWO EASY WAYS TO CHARGE
    Use the onboard Level 1 charger and power cord to connect to any standard household outlet and get a full charge overnight. For a faster charge, visit any public Level 3 DC Fast Charge station......The LiveWire can be charged at any compatible charging station, or with its on-board charger and a standard household outlet.

    Level 1 (standard household outlet): 13 miles range per hour of charged.
    Level 2: LiveWire can be connected to a Level 2 charge unit but will be charged at the Level 1 rate.
    Level 3 (DC Fast Charge): 192 miles range per hour charged.

    How much will the H-D Connect annual subscription cost?

    H-D Connect will be free for the first year. After that, there will be a subscription fee.

    Will the LiveWire motorcycle retain all functionality if I don't care to subscribe to HD Connect?

    Without the subscription that is required to maintain a cellular service, owners will not be able to take advantage of any of the remote status and security features.

    0 Not allowed!

  2. #2
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Seacoast NH
    Posts
    15,682

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    As someone on FB pointed out, these do not have cooled battery cells either. So they will not even charge at L3 levels once the battery gets hot. The newest 40kWh Nissan Leaf has this issue. This severely impacts charging turn-around for long distance travel.

    Overall it is what it is; a very cutting edge, expensive new model/tech. Not at all surprised at the costs or limitations. I am surprised to see Harley Davidson first major brand to (US) market.

    Pretty awesome.. I think.
    Sadly the range is about 1/2 what I need for a serious mile slogging commuter.

    0 Not allowed!

  3. #3
    Cat herder
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Low Earth orbit
    Posts
    226

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Ludd's First Law of Technology: Never buy version 1.0 of anything.

    3 Not allowed!

  4. #4
    Senior Member MUZ720's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    650

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    I think Harley is throwing darts blindly trying to get new buyers in the door.. And this one has missed the mark! Sure a few will sell cause some people just want to be the 1st to have the latest tech. New riders are not going to be walking into a Harley dealership and plunking down 30K. There base is not going to be interested at all except for the curious.. maybe they have some urban value as a city commuting bike? Be interesting to see if the dealers even get behind this bike as they could not embrace the Buell's... when they had to sell them..

    0 Not allowed!

  5. #5
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Waterboro ME
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,313

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    As someone on FB pointed out, these do not have cooled battery cells either. So they will not even charge at L3 levels once the battery gets hot. The newest 40kWh Nissan Leaf has this issue. This severely impacts charging turn-around for long distance travel.
    The Alta (where I suspect a LOT of the Livewire's design came from) has a non actively cooled batt pack and it fast charges just fine.

    0 Not allowed!
    771 Racing -=- FaceBook
    Backed by Heroic Racing Apparel
    A-ko - 1992 FZR400RR SP / Mistake - 1992 WR250ZD / Facade - 2003 YZF-R6 / 2000 LS650P

  6. #6
    Lifer nt650hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Rockland, Assachusetts U Know South Shore
    Age
    45
    Posts
    7,265

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!


    2 Not allowed!
    Gino
    HAWK GT Racer Expert #929
    2012 CCS LRRS ULSB Champion
    2012 CCS LRRS P89 Champion
    2008 CCS ULSB National Champion
    ECKRACING Bridgestone Street & Competition Woodcraft MOTUL On Track Media Pine Motorparts Vanson Leathers

  7. #7

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    I'm surprised it doesn't have a higher range than the Zero. Maybe HD doesn't want to undercut their own brand?

    0 Not allowed!

  8. #8
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Seacoast NH
    Posts
    15,682

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    The Alta (where I suspect a LOT of the Livewire's design came from) has a non actively cooled batt pack and it fast charges just fine.
    Does it? How did they do this?

    This is an issue for the large density cars right now. You cannot overheat the lithium battery packs or you will kill them. Nissan Leaf buyers are finding regular air cooling isn't enough. Bolt and Tesla packs are liquid cooled and I believe the cooling is run during L3 quick charging.

    0 Not allowed!

  9. #9
    Lifer gixxer72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    The desert
    Posts
    1,608

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by nt650hawk View Post
    First thing I thought of when I heard the name!!

    0 Not allowed!

  10. #10
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Seacoast NH
    Posts
    15,682

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Are you sure Alta supports L3 (ie DC fast charge) charging? Skimming forums and their site I am not sure they do. Only AC L2 charging.

    0 Not allowed!

  11. #11
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Waterboro ME
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,313

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    Are you sure Alta supports L3 (ie DC fast charge) charging? Skimming forums and their site I am not sure they do. Only AC L2 charging.
    They don't directly support any of the standard car charger protocols. Their fast charger however is a 3.3Kw charger, 1.5hrs for a full charge. They do have multiple temp sensors in the pack, and the charger can and will throttle or stop if thermals get out of hand. The only time I've heard of that being an issue is guys racing MX during peak heat on the older MX batt pack (Not fast charger capable, different batts/construction) would set up fans and misters to cool their packs while charging between motos. Those bikes would also hit thermal limits on track and limit power, which is what led to the MXR, still not actively cooled but different cells, tweaked construction means the pack runs cooler, can handle higher temps allowing for harder charging and discharging while providing the same total capacity. There are people trying to come up with an adapter to allow L3 support but it's totally homebrew at this point with Alta shuttered.

    0 Not allowed!
    771 Racing -=- FaceBook
    Backed by Heroic Racing Apparel
    A-ko - 1992 FZR400RR SP / Mistake - 1992 WR250ZD / Facade - 2003 YZF-R6 / 2000 LS650P

  12. #12
    Member ducatirdr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Sutton
    Age
    56
    Posts
    283

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    I can't believe how poorly directed the H-D project teams are. This bike got a lot of press but it is not a Tesla on two wheels. It's going to be the VR1000 of this age. A weak attempt that misses the mark by a long shot.

    Where is the FTR1200 competition?

    Why didn't they make this as a street legal 750?

    Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$,800!!!-e301c338bf6479799a737c24d9a5af3c-jpg

    Nope it came out as an ugly as hell Street 750 cruiser.

    Electric bikes should be created by H-D and sold to kids as a step up from toy grade stuff. They would offer hop up kits and be styled as Flat Trackers so they could be used in the back yard oval. If they made them strong enough to hold an adult that would be awesome. Back yard fun and no cops being called as kid get addicted to wind in their face they also walk through the big bike show room to the service desk... That's how it should be marketed. Much like the Rupp, Mini-Trail and other mini's us old guys grew up on.

    5 Not allowed!
    Send cash... I need a track day

  13. #13
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Seacoast NH
    Posts
    15,682

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ducatirdr View Post
    Electric bikes should be created by H-D and sold to kids as a step up from toy grade stuff. They would offer hop up kits and be styled as Flat Trackers so they could be used in the back yard oval. If they made them strong enough to hold an adult that would be awesome. Back yard fun and no cops being called as kid get addicted to wind in their face they also walk through the big bike show room to the service desk... That's how it should be marketed. Much like the Rupp, Mini-Trail and other mini's us old guys grew up on.
    You make an exceptionally good point here. I'd be a buyer for what you propose. I know I say that a lot. But.. yeah.

    1 Not allowed!

  14. #14
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Seacoast NH
    Posts
    15,682

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurlon View Post
    They don't directly support any of the standard car charger protocols. ... There are people trying to come up with an adapter to allow L3 support but it's totally homebrew at this point with Alta shuttered.
    I didn't realize Alta was this way. That's horrible.

    Homebrew here sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. IIRC these cells really do not like being over-temp. But then as you say, the company is no more. So warranty isn't an issue.

    HD must have stepped away from that. Because their website claims:
    For a faster charge, visit any public Level 3 DC Fast Charge station.
    Photos show what I am pretty sure is a standard connector. Sure looks like the one used on the Bolt.

    I'm not sure they will be able to fully utilize those DC fast chargers without active cooling. Maybe for the first charge, but not subsequent. Ie not there yet for any real distance traveling, even if you are willing/able to charge-station hop.
    I believe the L3 charge rates are on the order of 7kW.

    0 Not allowed!

  15. #15
    Senior Member MUZ720's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    650

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Yep love that idea. I can remember riding my friends Honda trail 70 around and around his house for hours. Got me hooked into the sport early. But Harley is to short sighted to understand that.

    0 Not allowed!

  16. #16
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Waterboro ME
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,313

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by nhbubba View Post
    I didn't realize Alta was this way. That's horrible.

    Homebrew here sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. IIRC these cells really do not like being over-temp. But then as you say, the company is no more. So warranty isn't an issue.

    HD must have stepped away from that. Because their website claims:

    Photos show what I am pretty sure is a standard connector. Sure looks like the one used on the Bolt.

    I'm not sure they will be able to fully utilize those DC fast chargers without active cooling. Maybe for the first charge, but not subsequent. Ie not there yet for any real distance traveling, even if you are willing/able to charge-station hop.
    I believe the L3 charge rates are on the order of 7kW.
    L3 is AC or DC, up to 20Kw AC or 250kw/350kw DC. CHAdeMO is likely what you're thinking of, a specific L3 standard, DC, 50kw max. The key components are the connector, easy to source, and the protocol for getting it to work. It's not just plug in get juice, you have to speak to the charger to tell it 'Oy, this voltage, this current k plz tnx'. Altas (other than the SM, it has a 110v AC charger built in) do DC charging, using CAN bus to dictate the charge rate. There is one guy on the Alta forums that makes CHAdeMO kits for other vehicles already that's confident the same tech will happily work with the Alta too.

    As to why Alta didn't include it out of the crate, the required supporting hardware adds weight. He's estimating 5 to 6lbs worth for CHAdeMO, and other than the EX/EXR none of the bikes that can work with it are road legal and of those only the EXR can handle the higher charge rate so... not much demand to charge those at public stations, and a portable charger that can charge at 3.3kw comes with the bikes that can support it.

    0 Not allowed!
    Last edited by Kurlon; 01-08-19 at 02:38 PM.
    771 Racing -=- FaceBook
    Backed by Heroic Racing Apparel
    A-ko - 1992 FZR400RR SP / Mistake - 1992 WR250ZD / Facade - 2003 YZF-R6 / 2000 LS650P

  17. #17
    Burns retinas nhbubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Seacoast NH
    Posts
    15,682

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    I see your point re: the MX offerings. Not so much re: the road oriented ones. I'm not versed enough in Alta models to know which are road oriented.
    IMO anything road oriented that can't L2 "quick" AC charge out of the box at a public station is a miss.

    Maybe this HD samples some Alta tech. I don't know. But it seems it is a largely different beast targeting a different market. Hence the required on-board charge controller and DC fast-charge compatibility built in.

    The problem is, can you use it. I'm hearing that the newer 40k Leaf buyers can't fully utilize it because the Leaf batteries are not cooled. This'll be a problem for this road-bike as well.

    I believe ~3kW charging is considered pretty pedestrian charge rates now. Google says the latest Teslas and Bolts can charge at ~2x that. Alta "fast charge" isn't EV car "fast charge".

    On the top of the LiveWire’s “gas tank” is a charge port that uses an SAE J1772 connector, the emerging automotive standard for full-on electric cars. It supports Level 2 (fast, measured in hours) and Level 3 charging, which is the most rapid of all: direct current fast charging. DC fast charging is generally only limited by what the cells and cooling can handle, and if you look closely at the photographs released, you can see liquid-cooling lines and what appears to be a radiator or two on the LiveWire. This may be the first production electric motorcycle that can be charged to 80 percent in 15–20 minutes; topping off the last 20 percent is always a slower process, and getting to near 100 percent may take an hour.
    That was from an older preview that seemed to be guessing at the battery. We now know the battery is not liquid cooled.. and hence this may be an issue.

    Basically this Harley won't tour worth a damn.

    0 Not allowed!

  18. #18
    Lifer Kurlon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Waterboro ME
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,313

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    3.3kw charge rate on a 5.6kwh batt pack is pretty damn good, and about max what you can expect from 220v in the US, what the charger was scaled for. It is believed that the cells in the 'R' model Altas, MXR and EXR can charge at 2C, so 11kw if given the opportunity.

    0 Not allowed!
    771 Racing -=- FaceBook
    Backed by Heroic Racing Apparel
    A-ko - 1992 FZR400RR SP / Mistake - 1992 WR250ZD / Facade - 2003 YZF-R6 / 2000 LS650P

  19. #19
    Posting Freak BSR6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    898

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    I agree that Harley's marketing team is missing the mark in a lot of ways. I spent a lot of time studying the consumer profile of millennials in my previous job so I have a good idea of what it looks like. What I see coming from Harley is a textbook, connect the dots kind of approach. You can't just say "oh millennials are environmentally conscious so we'll come out with an electric motorcycle".

    I think Harley could gain a lot by maintaining yet steadily evolving the styling of their bikes, while putting more emphasis on function. Every Harley riding Millennial I know says that the FXR and FXDX were the best handling Harley's ever and they all want one. So why have they abandoned those bikes? Now would be a good time to come out with an evolved version of these bikes with newer styling and good shocks.

    I just don't see how an all electric model fits the Harley mold. Even if they are trying to break their mold, this is not how they should be going about it.

    1 Not allowed!

  20. #20

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BSR6 View Post
    I agree that Harley's marketing team is missing the mark in a lot of ways. I spent a lot of time studying the consumer profile of millennials in my previous job so I have a good idea of what it looks like. What I see coming from Harley is a textbook, connect the dots kind of approach. You can't just say "oh millennials are environmentally conscious so we'll come out with an electric motorcycle".

    I think Harley could gain a lot by maintaining yet steadily evolving the styling of their bikes, while putting more emphasis on function. Every Harley riding Millennial I know says that the FXR and FXDX were the best handling Harley's ever and they all want one. So why have they abandoned those bikes? Now would be a good time to come out with an evolved version of these bikes with newer styling and good shocks.

    I just don't see how an all electric model fits the Harley mold. Even if they are trying to break their mold, this is not how they should be going about it.

    I think a nice approach into the electric market is what CSC is doing with their City Slicker - basically an electric grom clone. It doesn't have massive range, but it is not meant for extended riding anyway. Nice price point, something that could get a beginner started without muss or fuss.

    2019 CSC Motorcycles City Slicker CTYSKR-BLUE | CSC Motorcycles

    0 Not allowed!

  21. #21
    Member Fast_Eddie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Framingham
    Age
    53
    Posts
    285

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Harley isn't targeting the NESR market. They are targeting the average Harley rider. So 10 miles to the bar and 10 miles home. Sounds like the range as listed is fine.

    0 Not allowed!

  22. #22

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    it's not going to save the company or sell incredibly well...can we all just be born in 1950 and live to ride in the 70's/80's/90's/00's

    there used to be a motocross park in orange county, CA..closed in 1984...closest riding is pretty much 2 hours away now

    0 Not allowed!
    FREE $10 UBER CREDIT W' PROMO CODE --> PON41
    1994 Yamaha YZ250 CA Street Legal 2-smoke :smoke ** 2001 Suzuki GSX1300R Busa ** 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 500R **
    instagram @veshlife

  23. #23
    Lifer Falko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    MoonTown
    Posts
    4,609

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Worst thing they could do is market this bike under the Harley name. Don't hide the affiliation but Harley people aren't going to be interested in this bike as a whole (or even remote majority). They don't make noise, they don't attract the look at me attention, and where to you install the chrome valve covers?? There is definitely a market for electric motorcycles, but they need to look where that market is looking.

    0 Not allowed!
    Dad's Dream: Earn enough money to live the life that his wife and kids do.

  24. #24
    Development Rider scottieducati's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Waltham, MA
    Posts
    5,825

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    The point is the "Harley People" market is dying (literally), and this is their (first of many) attempt to get *new* customers.

    0 Not allowed!

    CCS/LRRS #83

  25. #25

    Re: Harley Electric Live Wire Details / Orders:$$$29,800!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Falko View Post
    Worst thing they could do is market this bike under the Harley name. Don't hide the affiliation but Harley people aren't going to be interested in this bike as a whole (or even remote majority). They don't make noise, they don't attract the look at me attention, and where to you install the chrome valve covers?? There is definitely a market for electric motorcycles, but they need to look where that market is looking.
    I don't know how this bike sells without the Harley name. Zero is selling their motorcycles for 1/2 to 1/3 the price. It seems to me that difference in price is supported by brand value, not actual features. Maybe if they partner with Tesla and release under that branding.

    I think overall, Harley is going to have trouble selling as many bikes as they would like at their high price point.

    0 Not allowed!

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •