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Harsh and objectionable

  1. #26
    Just Registered Crash Dummy Denno's Avatar
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    Harsh and objectionable


    Quote Originally Posted by s a x m a n View Post
    that pipe on a street bike is stupid .... you deserved to get pulled over
    wow - who shit in Jamie's cornflakes?

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  2. #27
    Lifer Pittenger5's Avatar
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    Ehh Id have to agree. Theres a difference between cool and obnoxious. Most aftermarket pipes sound good and are cool. D&Ds are obnoxious. Id say Kitts pipe was louder than D&D. The only reason people have them are so they have the loudest pippe they can get. Thus, you find one dick cop and add the two together, ticket. Kinda know what youre getting into.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
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  3. #28
    Lifer Currently's Avatar
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    There is a difference between loud and obnoxious.

    That difference is when people get pissed off.

    I love bikes and the sounds they make off of the various aftermarket cans.
    When I am on a superslab with all traffic going in the same direction and I hear some ahole coming up behind me from a 1/4 mile away and I still hear him a half mile ahead of me after he passes me ... that is too fucking loud. There is no excuse for it. There is no reason for it.

    Tone is where it is at, not loud.

    When I have a child in a carseat in the back of my very quiet interior car and that child starts crying because he was so rudely woken up ... there is a problem ...

    If I ever go on a ride with someone in front of me blatting through my earplugs, there is a problem, I am splitting off and continuing on my own separate way. I can ride without bringing all kinds of malignant attention to me.

    I am way passed the stage where I want everyone to look at me ...

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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceo012384 View Post
    No higher frequency doesn't carry farther... also decibels are unrelated to frequency (at least in air @ sea level in human audible frequencies)
    Not quite. Frequency is a measure of a wave's crest to crest dimension expressed in hertz (cycles (or waves) per second). It can be measured with a common oscilloscope. The more waves per second (Hertz) the higher the pitch.

    A Decibel is a measure of sound pressure . This is the wave's amplitude (height). It is a logarithmic scale. Every 10db is heard as twice as loud (in other words double the pressure). Sound pressure is measured with a decibel meter and can be quantified.

    Noise is subjective and where many of the controversies come in. The human ear is tuned to be most sensitive in the normal frequency range of the human voice. This is why you are able to select the "weighting" of any good db meter. It will tune the meter to be more sensitive in the human voice frequency range. Depending on the person, you may be more sensitive in a higher or lower part of that range and therefore "hear" more noise from a given source. The measured pressure is independent of the frequency. In other words whether the source is a twin or an inline four, 105 db is 105 db. A lower frequency wave has fewer waves contacting a given damper, like trees, cars, grass etc. and loses less energy than a higher frequency wave. That is why twins can be heard further away than an inline four, given the same initial sound pressure. The wave travels a greater distance because it loses energy at a slower rate. This is what makes sound testing and compliance so difficult. Every factor in wave transmission will effect sound pressure, and as conditions change, so do the pressure readings. Sound waves will travel further (and retain more energy at a given distance) in dry dense air, i.e. Winter. In the summer, the same sound wave will lose more of it's energy to the water vapor in the air and will have less energy at the same distance. So if you test your sound compliance in the summer time, you may be over your limit in the Winter months.

    Aside from all the empirical data, Noise is the issue, not sound pressure. It's the number one threat to motorcycling today, both on and off road. Every time some one causes a non-motorcyclist to block there ears or even take notice, it affects us all. Even if you can prove that a race track, or muffler system, or off road riding area complies with sound ordinances, if some one percieves that a noise is objectionable, you lose. We've lost more off road riding areas because some jack ass feels that they are entitled to silence 24/7. I'm the last guy that wants every bike to sound like a sewing machine. How ever if you even think that your pipe is too loud, please do the whole sport a favor and repack it, or replace it.

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pittenger5 View Post
    Thus, you find one dick cop and add the two together, ticket. Kinda know what youre getting into.
    you will find more than one im pretty sure.

    well if it was me. maybe...

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmdboston View Post

    A Decibel is a measure of sound pressure . This is the wave's amplitude (height). It is a logarithmic scale. Every 10db is heard as twice as loud (in other words double the pressure). Sound pressure is measured with a decibel meter and can be quantified.
    i remember this. do you teach physics?

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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmdboston View Post

    Noise is subjective and where many of the controversies come in. The human ear is tuned to be most sensitive in the normal frequency range of the human voice. This is why you are able to select the "weighting" of any good db meter. It will tune the meter to be more sensitive in the human voice frequency range. Depending on the person, you may be more sensitive in a higher or lower part of that range and therefore "hear" more noise from a given source.
    huh? i thought noise is whatever sound you don't like. example, some likes certain music but it's all noise to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmdboston View Post

    Aside from all the empirical data, Noise is the issue, not sound pressure. It's the number one threat to motorcycling today, both on and off road. Every time some one causes a non-motorcyclist to block there ears or even take notice, it affects us all. Even if you can prove that a race track, or muffler system, or off road riding area complies with sound ordinances, if some one percieves that a noise is objectionable, you lose. We've lost more off road riding areas because some jack ass feels that they are entitled to silence 24/7. I'm the last guy that wants every bike to sound like a sewing machine. How ever if you even think that your pipe is too loud, please do the whole sport a favor and repack it, or replace it.
    huh? first you said loudness depends what other peoples think. but then if YOU think it's too loud? in that case i'll never admit my pipe is too loud. im just deaf.

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  8. #33
    Freak Posting snowborder's Avatar
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    what was wrong with the stock pipe?

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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by trickphoto View Post
    Points?
    There's no reason...here's my point, dude, there's no fucking reason why these two...

    Huh? No! What the fuck are you...I'm not....we're talking about unchecked aggression here--

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    It's all water under the bridge, and we do enter the next round-robin. Am I wrong?

  10. #35
    Lifer Currently's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hessogood View Post
    There's no reason...here's my point, dude, there's no fucking reason why these two...

    Huh? No! What the fuck are you...I'm not....we're talking about unchecked aggression here--
    Fight Club?

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  11. #36
    Just Registered ChrisNoF4i's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Currently View Post
    Fight Club?

    Schizophrenia is treatable with drugs

    Your ignorance has been duly noted.

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  12. #37
    Lifer Currently's Avatar
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    Ignorance can be cured with knowledge, stupidity on the other hand is terminal.

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  13. #38
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    A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again.

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  14. #39
    Lifer Currently's Avatar
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    We were having a similar debate on SVRider ... I found this very appropos to the thread subject.

    Credit goes to MotoFusion

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Alright, let's put the final nail in the coffin for this topic.

    The main argument is that an exhaust will get you noticed more in traffic. Pure and simple, this only works if you are adjacent to the motorist or in front. If you are coming from behind you won't be heard.

    Alright, so with that in mind, let's take a look at the breakdown of motorcycle accidents. The following breakdown comes from Personal-Injury.com, but if you look other places, including DOT statistics (from which I believe these results are drawn from), you'll find largely the same conclusions. I'm not gonna list all of the conclusions, but I'll list many of them relevant to the loud exhausts save lives argument (my comments are in italics):
    Approximately three-fourths of these motorcycle accidents involved collision with another vehicle, which was most often a passenger automobile.

    So in 25% of the accidents, a substantial amount, a loud exhaust wouldn't have made an iota of difference.


    In multiple vehicle accidents, the driver of the other vehicle violated the motorcycle right-of-way and caused the accident in two-thirds of those accidents.

    This means that 50% of all accidents were due to faults of other motorists. So, now we can say that 50% of all accidents, a loud exhaust would not have made a difference.


    The failure of motorists to detect and recognize motorcycles in traffic is the predominating cause of motorcycle accidents. The driver of the other vehicle involved in collision with the motorcycle did not see the motorcycle before the collision, or did not see the motorcycle until too late to avoid the collision.

    Alright, so in these accidents, your loud exhaust argument may have merit... maybe...


    The most frequent accident configuration is the motorcycle proceeding straight then the automobile makes a left turn in front of the oncoming motorcycle.

    Suddenly the loud exhaust argument in the item above has lost much of it's merit. A vehicle heading towards you will not hear your exhaust, as it is pointed the other way.


    Intersections are the most likely place for the motorcycle accident, with the other vehicle violating the motorcycle right-of-way, and often violating traffic controls.

    Where else is a vehicle turning left but an intersection? This goes with the item above, a loud exhaust will have very little effect on motorists' awareness of you. How will your loud exhaust coax motorists into following the traffic laws?


    The view of the motorcycle or the other vehicle involved in the accident is limited by glare or obstructed by other vehicles in almost half of the multiple vehicle accidents.

    This one pretty much stabs the loud exhaust argument in the back. So, this means in 37.5% of all motorcycle accidents, glare or vision obstruction is a significant factor.


    The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.

    Hmm, could training and practice make a substantially larger difference than more dB's from your exhaust? It'd be a lot cheaper...


    Conspicuity of the motorcycle is a critical factor in the multiple vehicle accidents, and accident involvement is significantly reduced by the use of motorcycle headlamps (on in daylight) and the wearing of high visibility yellow, orange or bright red jackets.

    I'll just repeat it: "accident involvement is significantly reduced by the use of motorcycle headlamps (on in daylight) and the wearing of high visibility yellow, orange or bright red jackets." No mention of louder exhausts anywhere in that sentence.


    Lack of attention to the driving task is a common factor for the motorcyclist in an accident.

    I've seen more than a few posts on here where riders simply weren't paying attention. They may have been completely focused on their riding, but they weren't paying attention to the surroundings and making safe decisions.


    The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.

    Take a class. It's cheaper than buying a loud exhaust.


    Almost half of the fatal accidents show alcohol involvement.

    Don't drink and ride. There's no chance of your loud exhaust saving you.


    The typical motorcycle pre-crash lines-of-sight to the traffic hazard portray no contribution of the limits of peripheral vision; more than three-fourths of all accident hazards are within 45deg of either side of straight ahead.

    This says that most hazards, such as inattentive motorists, lie in front of you. A motorist in front of you will have a very difficult time hearing your backwards facing exhaust over the wind, engine, and ambient noise in their automobile.


    Motorcycle riders in these accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would overbrake and skid the rear wheel, and underbrake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to countersteer and swerve was essentially absent.

    A loud exhaust may prevent this? Didn't it say above that most accidents happen in front of the motorcyclist where motorists will not hear your exhaust? Once again, practice and training can have a much larger effect on reducing risk.


    Motorcycles equipped with fairings and windshields are underrepresented in accidents, most likely because of the contribution to conspicuity and the association with more experienced and trained riders.

    I just found this one interesting.


    Motorcycle riders in these accidents were significantly without motorcycle license, without any license, or with license revoked. 36. Motorcycle modifications such as those associated with the semi-chopper or cafe racer are definitely overrepresented in accidents.

    Now, this doesn't directly say exhaust, but it's safe to say that one of the first things on the list of a chopper rider is a straight-pipe setup. Still, you can't pin this one on an exhaust, but it is interesting to see that modified motorcycles crop up a bit more in motorcycle accidents.

    So what can you learn from all of this? Well, if you still believe in the loud exhausts save lives philosophy, then you'll have to point your exhaust forwards.

    Otherwise, take classes, do track days, and get reflective clothing. Ride within' your limits and minimize your risk when riding in traffic. Buy an exhaust for looks and sound, but not as a substitute for rider skill and risk-reducing gear.

    Show me statistics that show loud mufflers prevent accidents and aren't merely a neighborhood nuisance and I'll replace my Holeshot with a D&D pipe.

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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 978chris View Post
    No points. Just gonna donate $50 everytime I get pulled I guess.

    Anyone know if they check how many times you've been cited for a specific fix-it offence and if the penalty gets steeper?
    In MA we can ask dispatch for a driver's history record (which we never do on a stop), but if we think we stopped a "shithead" we can find out how many speeding violations or defective equipment cites a person has received!!!

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  16. #41
    Lifer Pittenger5's Avatar
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    The problem that study has is it doesnt take into effect the amount of accidents PREVENTED. I dunno bout you but if a car tries to change into my land a handful of throttle and clutch wil lget them back in their lane a LOT faster than my dinky little horn. In that case Im sure any exhaust will do, but you cant deny a louder exhaust will work better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by wortown03 View Post
    In MA we can ask dispatch for a driver's history record (which we never do on a stop), but if we think we stopped a "shithead" we can find out how many speeding violations or defective equipment cites a person has received!!!

    ah... well? a young ____ ____. good thing he's not around my area.

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  18. #43
    Fork oil in my veins.... gmdboston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kham View Post
    huh? i thought noise is whatever sound you don't like. example, some likes certain music but it's all noise to others.



    huh? first you said loudness depends what other peoples think. but then if YOU think it's too loud? in that case i'll never admit my pipe is too loud. im just deaf.
    Noise must be heard to exist, sound exists even if no one hears it.

    Q: If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?
    A: Yes, it does.

    Q: If a Tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a noise?
    A: No, it does not.


    Loudness (not the right word, Volume is correct) is heard, can not be quantified and is subjective. Sound pressure does not need to be heard, and can be quantified. This is why you will always lose the fight in court. laws govern the subjective qualities of noise, not sound. Even if there is a specified regulation, there is always a catch that allows complaints by any one who feels their right to peace and quiet has been compromised. Also when it comes to mufflers etc. on the road ways, the courts almost always side with the LEO, even if they can not prove excessive sound pressure, "it's up to the Officer's discretion" is what I was told. Don't ask me how I know, but I will say I had stock mufflers and passed State Inspection.

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  19. #44
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    Peter, i still don't quite understand what you're talking about.

    my understanding is that sound is just a wave (frequency) traveling at constant speed. Noise is just unwanted sound that travels along. Loudness can be quantified and human hear drum starts to hurt at what? 100db? as far as the law, whoever makes it can say whatever the number hurts their ear. i think we're talking the same thing. no?

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  20. #45
    Fork oil in my veins.... gmdboston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kham View Post
    Peter, i still don't quite understand what you're talking about.

    my understanding is that sound is just a wave (frequency) traveling at constant speed. Noise is just unwanted sound that travels along. Loudness can be quantified and human hear drum starts to hurt at what? 100db? as far as the law, whoever makes it can say whatever the number hurts their ear. i think we're talking the same thing. no?
    A sound wave has a frequency, and an amplitude. Frequency is pitch, amplitude is pressure. We hear pressure as volume or as you refer to it, loudness. These are quantitative aspects of a sound wave. Noise is what we hear. It can be pleasing or irritating. That is the subjective quality of noise. For example some people like the sound of an H-D V-twin, and the louder the better. Others hate it. So to one person a loud roaring H-D with straight pipes makes a pleasing "noise" and to another even a stock quite H-D make an objectionable "noise". There is no way to quantify the "noise", only the frequency and amplitude of the sound wave. That's why it's so difficult to win the "noise argument" in court. If even one person testifies that a particular sound is offensive to them, you lose. It does not matter what the volume is, or what other sounds may be present.

    The threshold of pain is about 120dba, and varies some depending on the frequency. Normal conversation is about 60-65 dba.

    Here are some examples:
    0-Faintest sound heard by human ear.

    30-Whisper, quiet library.

    60-Normal conversation, sewing machine, typewriter.

    90-Lawnmower, shop tools, truck traffic; 8 hours per day is the maximum exposure to protect 90% of people.

    100-Chainsaw, pneumatic drill, snowmobile; 2 hours per day is the maximum exposure without protection.

    115-Sandblasting, loud rock concert, auto horn; 15 minutes per day is the maximum exposure without protection.

    140-Gun muzzle blast, jet engine; noise causes pain and even brief exposure injures unprotected ears. Maximum allowed noise with hearing protectors.

    Note that Zero is the faintest sound detectable by the human ear. This means sound waves can have negative db ratings, but they are too quiet for us to hear them.

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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kham View Post
    i remember this. do you teach physics?
    No sir I don't, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

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  22. #47
    Super Moderator OreoGaborio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kham View Post
    Peter, i still don't quite understand what you're talking about.
    that's because you don't understand the fact that a "noise" isn't necessarily unwanted.

    if i clap my hands cuz you did a wheelie, i made a noise.

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    unless he measures the dbs then it wouldnt stand up in court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s a x m a n View Post
    that pipe on a street bike is stupid .... you deserved to get pulled over
    and with him. Might as well get a D&D and try the same thing.

    KB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kham View Post
    ah... well? a young ____ ____. good thing he's not around my area.
    to be honest...i dont mess around with anyone who rides!!! All you would have to say to me is that you're an NESR member and you'd be on your way!

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