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Laser Info for the PUBLIC

  1. #1
    Lifer Suf Daddy's Avatar
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    Laser Info for the PUBLIC

    From a post I made to a fellow lister:
    Info for the masses.

    Suf Daddy wrote on September15th, 2004 11:09 AM:
    Maybe NH has more than two, but it seems like everyone's trying them out. I watched a few stops but they gave verbal warnings.
    So now I guess the test phase is over, hence some with citations.

    I have four doppler units here and the KR-11 Vascar gizmo which is nearly identical to the NH "Sky timer" they use.

    The owners manual goes into several sections of operation and use. Its here they seem to breeze over points which they make about cautions of use.

    ProLAser 2 no through windows, but Pro laser 3 glass, snow, rain anything. I don't believe it. Kustoms says alot of things.
    Kustoms POP (radar) feature is electronically calculated faster that the "clock" speed of their processor. They tout it as a selling point, then say in the manual don't use it for citing the speeder.
    COme on...........

    Aorund 1990 the laser was "ABLE" pick a car out of a lane. That's BS at 1,000 feet or more since the current 4th generation lidar/laser units are 3' wide at 1,000 feet.
    This led New Jersey to ban lidar use over 1,000 feet. IMHO.

    NH has been using them exceeding 2,000 feet in my observed testing. They "paint" you far away then confront you as you pass.

    Too much error IMHO.

    Page 7 of Pro III:
    "Because of the narrow beam width and minimal expansion, the laser is used in surveying since a small object can be targeted at great distance." THEN Page 8:
    ProLAser II square beam 3'x3' at 1,000 ft
    "Beam expressed as 3.0 mr x 3.0 mr or about 0.172 degrees."
    convert degrees to a fraction of: 0.00300198 "times the distance to the target."

    Pick 700' x .003 and you get a beam width of 2.1'
    Try 1,700" and you get 5.10' (square) which is a labratory test because the (smoke, dust, rain etc.) particles in the air scatter light...."flair" it out farther.

    They measure DISTANCE not speed. page 8.

    The device measures "pulses" around 200 a second. and compares them to returned pulses.

    The calculuation is done in 5 MILLIseconds.

    then based on that calc (page 10) "the computer calculates the average speed."

    It really looks for a minimum of 70 pulses to make a reading.
    THEN
    the unit uses "various error trapping" software (algorythium) to further compute a reading.
    The technique is not using a simple average, but "LEAST SQUARES, another form of averaging is used." page 10.

    Now in Doppler radar, you have to have a suffient tracking history.
    Now how does that work with the Laser?
    more to come this computer crashes.
    -Suf Daddy

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  2. #2
    Lifer Suf Daddy's Avatar
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    MORE from page 11 on.

    Doppler radar units have an audio tone "doppler audio" which translates reflections from the beam into tones.

    While driving and spraying K band (for example) the tones increase WRT oncoming traffic and each tone pitch respresents a high pitch which = a higher speed. Oscillating tones are two or more reflections being read at the same time. (hence different speed displays depending on the sample rate of the radar unit.

    BACK TO LIDAR / LAser.
    This Audio tone is generated. Its synthesised. FAKE.
    Its derived from the info (pulses) read by the unit so depending on the filtering and processing of pulses to "make" a reading the audio tones generated will just be an audio equivilant of the "processed info".
    In other words, if the manipulated data isn't an accurate reflection (distance) of the moving object (over time) then its generated tone is not a true representation of objects actual velocity. IMHO.

    Page 11
    Laser "is only a tool to be used by the operator. It is NOT a primary function, but secondary to the operator's visual estimation of speed. TRACKING HISTORY of the target is essential, even with a laser based device."
    1. Visually observe target vehicle and estimate its speed.
    2. Obtain a locking tone.
    3. Obtain a reading with the laser and compare the speed reading with the visual estimate. THIS SHOULD BE DONE over a PERIOD OF TIME 2-4 seconds."

    While the lidar and lasers "compute" the speed in 1/3 of a second or faster, 2-4 seconds of montioring is NEEDED to verify a valid reading

    My FAVORITE:

    "As we will see later, there are several anomalies that MAY affect the operation of laser. (REALLY????) therefore, careful tracking history, as with radar, will eliminate or redue misinterpreted readings." Page 11

    More later

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  3. #3
    Lifer Suf Daddy's Avatar
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    and then there's WHAT?

    A heads up display (HUD) is used on top of the Kustom Pro Laser III.
    It is to minimize a parallax error.
    "this is the condition when using a specific aiming device like a scope and the laser's beam must be aligned at a specific target distance." IF A DIFFERENT is used, the scope must be realigned to that new distance, the same as aligning a scope to a rifle fro accurate targeting. Using a HUD eliminates this problem."

    "the HUD is used to view the aiming target reticle and also displays speed and direction or distance. THE AIMING RECTICLE is a SMALL RED SQUARE, approx the size of the laser beam at any distance....................." Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    If your color blind or can't see red well your F'd. Period.

    Simply put these ways:
    If you stare straight at a baseball coming at your eye, you can't judge (its) distance well. Its a depth perception issue with a moving object. If I lose a contact lens this issue is amplified. Bad eye sight is also a cause.

    Depth perception and parallax error are related IMHO.

    Similar to zooming in with your video camera and the object comes closer to you, you need to zoom back out to keep the object in persective.

    WHAT IF:
    If you don't align your eyes (one of yours is more dominant that the other, gun owners have a test to do in determining how to draw a bead on something down a sight) accurately down the HUD frame, your actual view at 1,000 feet may be off by a bit.
    MEANING: aiming at the target BUT NOT HITTING IT.

    This display shows distance, "speed" (calculated from the pulse(s) reflected back) and a plus or minus sign - + for direction. Towards or away, receeding from the unit.

    more to come

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    Suf Daddy.



  4. #4
    Lifer Suf Daddy's Avatar
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    Page 14

    Here the manual talks about battery power and the sleep mode to conserve power. All good stuff when run cordless on batteries.

    12V cord for the cigarette lighter is also an option.

    Here's the point I like.
    Supposedly the unit will stop operating once a low battery voltage (like 10V) is reached, from 12V.

    If a reading is locked in the unit will go to sleep but still flash those old readings.

    If you pick up the unit..............
    "If a locked speed was flashing when the unit goes into sleep mode, the speed and range will continue to display........To bring the Prolaser out of sleep mode press any buttons on the rear panel (except PWR)
    >>>> The operator can activate the unit using the trigger, but if there is a locked speed showing, it may erase all locked speed and range numbers IF DEPRESSED TWICE. <<<<<<

    Well what if you pick it up and point click (ONCE) and shoot?
    What reading does it display, new or OLD?

    More later.

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  5. #5
    I kick hippies...and Kham Nikon's Avatar
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    Laser Info for the PUBLIC

    damn dood

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    Bras cause cancer.

  6. #6
    Lifer legalspeed's Avatar
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    Laser Info for the PUBLIC

    Out-fucking-standing!!


    But, will the judge just get more pissed?

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    LRRS\CCS\WERA #486

  7. #7
    Lifer Suf Daddy's Avatar
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    WOW

    I found this at tipmra.com
    Its ALL their wording.

    I never even thought about a "tuning fork" like test to verify accuracy. (Radar is supposed to use them...I have five or so.) I heard some departments (out West) have a wall at 100 feet or some distance where the patrolmen pull up to on their way out to patrol and zap the wall to verify 100 feet or the accuracy of the distance..........

    THE BIG Q is: Has Massachusetts and NH taken Judical notice of Laser / Lidar?

    Here's the text: FROM Tipmra.com:
    "laser addendum:

    New - (Illinois-case law showing there is no Judicial notice For Illinois only Click Here) (makes laser inadmissible in Illinois)

    For those of you having trouble with the Laser Defense this is will offer additional help. First you should have read the material in the Tipmra and the case law from New Jersey "Admissibility of Motor Vehicle Speed Readings Produced....txt". (found with the tipmra in case law)

    The first item, after your name is called and before your trial begins and before you hand the Judge the case laws is to say “ Your honor, for the record I understand that this Jurisdiction has not taken Judicial Notice as to the reliability of Laser Speed measuring Devices as to the admissibility as evidence in a speeding ticket trial” (then hand him "Admissibility of Motor Vehicle Speed Readings Produced....txt" saying, “Here is a expanded example as to the reason why most Jurisdictions have no such notice.”

    The Judge most likely will not read it or he will simply skip everything and go to the bottom line that states that Laser Speed Measuring Devices are unreliable and not admissible as evidence in New Jersey. He may also ask the prosecuting attorney if such judicial notice exists. The Prosecutor will most likely say. “I think there is Judicial notice.”

    If the prosecutor says the word “think” immediately object saying. “Your Honor, I object, thinking that something exists does not make it so.”



    If the prosecutor says “Judicial Notice has been taken in this Jurisdiction” say “If that is so the Prosecutor should have problem presenting the writ of judicial notice or informing the court where it is for this court to review”. (that should shut him up)




    You have a solid 50/50 chance of having the charge dismissed right here. Don’t worry if judicial notice exists or not, it is the prosecutions Burdon to show that it exists if you question it. If it exists you have not lost anything but by not doing this first step you have wasted a 50/50 chance of a speedy end and acquittal. (Read about Judicial notice in both the Tipmra and at the web site)

    If the Judge decides to go ahead with the trial you still have the fabulous tipmra as your defense.



    Here is where some of you have problems grasping the testing of the Laser Unit as compared to a radar unit. From reading "Admissibility of Motor Vehicle Speed Readings Produced....txt" you know the problems the laser unit has. From reading Boecker v. St. Louis you know the elements required to show that the unit was working correctly. OK Boecker deals with Radar but the same principals apply to laser.



    From reading the Tipmra and “How Radar Works” you know that the tuning forks provide an external input, a beat frequency oscillation that mimics a car traveling at a certain speed. You also know that it is an essential test as the internal circuitry test can not test as to how the unit will actually read speed.



    For Laser there are no tuning forks. There is no external device that can mimic a cars speed. You know that the officer will testify that he tested the unit by performing an internal circuit test and a distance measuring test. In the distance measuring test he tested it against a target at a known distance. You know from the Tipmra that you have to question this test and challenge it if it was not done from a stationary fixed point without the officer holding the unit.



    Before I go further, let us review HEARSAY EVIDENCE. In general it is inadmissible and there are a lot of rules as to what hearsay is and what is not. Simply it is ‘I heard, or he told me, or I heard him say’. It is evidence to which the witness has no direct knowledge. For example the witness may say that Paul told him that Jack was driving a red car. It does not prove the car was red, after all Jack might be color blind or the car Jack was referring to was Sam’s car. Unless Paul himself testifies the evidence that the car was red is inadmissible. In essence that is Hearsay.



    The officer will testify that the internal circuitry check was normal. The court can and will infer that the electronics was function correctly. We don’t have an argument with that. He will then testify as to using the device to measure several distances. We may have some problem with that but for the present let’s assume he did the distance check correctly. From this we know that the unit can check distance and that as a distance measuring device evidence as to distance measuring ability would be admissible.



    But wait! He used the unit to measure speed. Speed is a not a stationary object but a moving object. Speed is a function of distance divided by time. The distance to the front of the car is not the same as the distance to the back of the car. We have a problem. The unit was not tested as a speed measuring device on a real car. As a distance measuring device, yes. But not as a speed measuring device.

    Your ticket says 88 mile per hour, not that you were measured at 1440 feet and again at 860 feet in a time interval of .026 seconds. It is obvious that some test had to be done to determine if the electronic function and the distance measuring function work correctly together to accurately measure the speed of a car. To do this for Radar a tuning fork is used. The only way this can be don for a laser unit (which does not work on the Doppler Effect) is to do a drive by. That is another officer has to drive by in a car at a given speed and that speed must be the same as the reading on the laser speed gun. (Let us not forget that the car used in the test must also have a calibrated speedometer with a speedometer certification by an approved facility within the last six months).

    Chances are this drive by test was not done. But for arguments sake assume it was. Here is where HEARSAY comes into the picture. The officer that was driving the car is the only one that can testify as to the speed he was reading. If that officer is not in court to testify then the results of that test must be dismissed and subsequently the speeding charge. I have never heard of both officers appearing in court for a speeding ticket trial. But for arguments sake, this is not your day and both are there to testify. Remember how you learned to beat the speedometer in the tipmra. Just use the same on the officer testifying to the speed his car was doing.

    In the real world less then 10% of the time will the drive by test have been done. In 99.9% of the time the arresting officer will say. “Officer Jones drove by at thirty and fifty miles per hour”. The prosecutor will ask. “ And how did you know these were the speeds?” The Officer will say “He told me on the radio or he told me later when he drive to where I was”. In every event it is Hearsay. You object “Objection your honor, Hearsay, only the officer driving the car can testify as to the speed he recorded on the speedometer during the test”. That evidence of the cars speed is now inadmissible and the entire evidence produced by the laser gun becomes inadmissible as well. Break one link in the chain of evidence and the entire chain is inadmissible.

    But in the real world all you will get is the distance measurement and the internal check. (Remember they seldom if ever do the drive by test) If you accept the distance test and electronic test as being sufficient then you will lose. (but you won’t because you are using the tipmra)

    Now ask him. “Officer Jones, did you do a test on the speed function?” He will say that there is no test for this and that if the distance and internal function are OK then the speed function is OK as well.

    He may say that the manual says that is all he has to do, or he may say that is the department policy. It does not matter, he still did not check to see if it can read speed correctly and the only way to do that is to have a pace car drive by at a known speed and check it that way. Ah, but now we need two witnesses to testify but only one is in court.

    Remember, the manual says many times that the only certain way to verify the correct functioning is by testing it on a moving vehicle.

    There are as many ways to counter the officer’s contention that that is all he has to do. You are welcome to come up with your own and here are some for you to chew on.

    Officer Jones, are you trained as an electronic technician and expert in electro optics, laser and time dilation of moving objects? He will say no.
    Officer Jones, What is the mathematical formula for determining an objects speed? If he does not know, help him with distance divided by time or D/T=S (D/T=V). you tested the D, please explain how you tested the T. (since complex questions are not allowed, the next question would be). And how did you test that D and T worked together correctly to come up with S?
    Officer Jones, what direct test did you perform that on a moving object to which you know the speed to verify that the unit is working correctly?
    Officer Jones, just because your department accepts that these are the only tests you have to perform does this mean that this court must accept it as well? (he may answer yes or no, makes no difference). if he says YES then ask. Officer Jones are you saying that if your department says something it becomes binding on the court? If he says NO; don’t say anything, you have made your point.
    Officer Jones, Can you, with your knowledge of electronics, optics, laser and time dilations state to a legal degree of certainty that by performing only a distance test and internal component check state that the speed reading ability was accurate even though you preformed no test to test the accuracy of it’s speed reading ability? He will most likely say NO; if he says NO, rest your case, you just won. Should he say yes then please examine him on his education in electronics, optics, laser and time dilation physics. Have fun with him, make him feel like crawling under the witness chair. He has opened himself up to let you make him look like a complete idiot. By the time you are done he will be begging for mercy, then rest your case.

    You will have to use several combinations of questions but the end goal is to show that he did not do a test that verifies the speed reading of the unit.

    Closing Argument:

    Make a closing argument highlighting the point that no test as to the accuracy of the laser guns speed reading ability was preformed. If need be where you questioned the officers lack of education highlight his lack of knowledge. Add whatever you feel you need.


    Remember in the Tipmra you learned about Laser not being accurate when visible moisture is present and that it can’t be used through a car window etc. Use whatever you have to. Since it is not possible for me to come up with every question or possible reply for every situation that can come up at trial you will have to play it as best you can. If you understand the principals from the tipmra and the principals explained on this page you will have no problem.

    Now go for it Tiger. Make that officer sweat on the stand like the pig he is" : FROM Tipmra.com

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    Last edited by Suf Daddy; 09-16-04 at 03:31 PM.
    Suf Daddy.



  8. #8
    Lifer Suf Daddy's Avatar
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    MORE coming soon!

    The lasers stumped me, so I found several on Ebay and asked the sellers if they'd like to make some extra coin photocopying the manuals.......

    Then I found some cops in CA who use them and tested laser jammers on thier bikes.

    They mentioned some ways to make the unit give a reading: Called "painting" the target.

    While it gives a reading, it also uses the hood area which the front and back are at different distances to the laser gun source.

    So while you get a reflection, its NOT consistant with a fixed location or object. THAT translates into an inaccurate speed reading IMHO.

    Since the laser doesn't reflect a speed, (it does distance from the pulses THEN calculates the speed from the distance over time theory) the multiple reflection surfaces are MEANINGFUL where as in radar the "whole car" moves at the reflection of the microwave beam.

    More to come SOON!
    -Suf Daddy

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  9. #9
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    Radar

    The question are the normal non laser Doppler Radar could discrimine between 3 bikes speed in a group or the police just tell everybody going the same speed even if there space between riders.

    I don't think they can do that but I will going to court with a ticket where they put the same speed at everybody.

    So did you have info at this subject ???

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  10. #10
    Hungry like a wolf... MissTwisties's Avatar
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    Laser Info for the PUBLIC

    Et Alain, bienvenue sur NESR!

    I'll welcome you in the welcome and intro thread...

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  11. #11
    Lifer Suf Daddy's Avatar
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    Re: Radar

    Radar is microwave energy.
    Radar (doppler) is DIFFERENT than Laser/Lidar guns.

    Some radar units are calibrated (or by a switch) to display the fastest, strongest signal (reflection) OR (as the new one's do)
    a variable of fastest, strongest and directional.
    I have an old K-15 (2) unit with a read through lock.......but that won't tell me two signals, just hold one reading and continue to monitor whats going on.
    this Kustom unit does directional: (not necessarily two targets)

    http://www.rnicholls.com/kustom/dire...e_brochure.pdf

    Unless you find the specific model (brand) its hard to say if he could actually clock two of you at the same time.

    This one MAY:
    http://www.stalkerradar.com/law_2x.shtml

    While one unit COULD cover two targets. It will reflect from all three bikes.....but only keep track of TWO tops.........

    I feel That's GUILT by Association. (like "the guy infront of you was doing 83, so you're going 82..............."

    THAT"S BS. POssibly two targets with the StalkerDSR2x unit.

    Some (random) info:
    http://www.valentine1.com/lab/MikesLabRpt7.asp

    -Suf Daddy


    Originally posted by ninja_12r2000
    The question are the normal non laser Doppler Radar could discrimine between 3 bikes speed in a group or the police just tell everybody going the same speed even if there space between riders.

    I don't think they can do that but I will going to court with a ticket where they put the same speed at everybody.

    So did you have info at this subject ???

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  12. #12
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    Laser Info for the PUBLIC

    Well Suf, I read this all a few weeks ago for the technical value of it and thought it was cool.

    Now I really appreciate you taking the time to put this all out there. I went to magistrate today for a ticket (below) and was told that in fact Radar was not used but Lidar was...and that basically I could pay now or pay later (after an appeal of magistrates decision) or "maybe I'd luck out and the officer would be out sick" and it would get dismissed.

    I heard Lidar come out of his mouth and my gut sank. But the fact that he indicated I was wasting my time via fighting a Lidar ticket just made me want to take it on more.

    I also recalled my mental picture of the ticket as saying Radar?. ..I asked him about that and he said "yes the ticket was indicated Radar but there was an L next to the Radar usage which tells me the officer used Lidar, and a distance measurement".

    But the cop wasn't a rookie and even I know there is a little box that says "LIDAR" and it wasn't checked - so why put an L in radar? That puzzles me. Not to mention as you see below - every X or check mark is made a different way...so how the heck is that an L? Well whatever - I know he was using a Lidar gun but I don't think it was me he was tracking..I'll save that part of the story for later on. But if you're using Lidar and this is being recorded on an official document as Radar "with an L" it might be a technicality but I can't find anything in my drivers guide stating an officer can relabel that sort of thing for evidentiary purposes?

    But it does have a distance measurement...albeit a solo mark. Which would immediately lead me to believe I was "painted" versus being tracked? Backing this up as well is the fact that it was 1 officer with a
    handheld unit (I think thats the one) jumping into traffic and pointing with 2/3 officers in cruisers waiting to clean up and catch runners.

    The phunky part of this is that in this instance, I was not doing 78 in a 55!

    anyways..here's the ticket, I'll go into the historics later, but you probably should turn off your pm's



    note: link above

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  13. #13
    God Cam_In_IL's Avatar
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    Laser Info for the PUBLIC

    Can a brotha get some Cliff Notes? You lost me around the 2nd sentence.

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    Yup.

  14. #14
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    Laser Info for the PUBLIC

    FIGHT IT. There is a Lidar box and a radar box. if he checked the Radar Box and not the Lidar box and is stating he used LIDAR, then the TICKET IS NOT PROPERLY FILLED OUT.

    This is like writing the wrong road, wrong date, incorrect drivers license, etc.

    That is not an "L" and is very close to the check mark next to "All Civil Infractions" in look and similarity.

    FIGHT IT. If he marked the wrong method, he screwed up. He checked radar and needs to submit radar evidence. Sloppy work means you walk.

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    Laser Info for the PUBLIC

    Originally posted by Maui
    FIGHT IT. If he marked the wrong method, he screwed up. He checked radar and needs to submit radar evidence. Sloppy work means you walk.
    Thats about where I'm at - can't fill out a simple ticket how do I know he can operate a Lidar gun?

    Also checked the (rough) footage and that marker is BS - I don't think it was made from the lidar but moreso from counting jersey barriers or something...just due to the terrain in the area.

    I already handed them 20$ for the court fees so I will be fighting this, no question about it.

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  16. #16
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    Laser Info for the PUBLIC

    Originally posted by Cam_In_RI
    Can a brotha get some Cliff Notes? You lost me around the 2nd sentence.
    me and my rambling or suf and his vy informative post?

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  17. #17
    Lifer Suf Daddy's Avatar
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    Oh yeah..........

    I'm going to look for the staute where the officer needs to have you sign the ticket.(1) Its a THIN technicallity but those who know how to use it to their advantage can make something of it.

    I'd say you have two tehnicallities. I'd say GO for it (of course)......and to up the ante I too joined the ticketed crowd last week. 89 in a 65 so I gonna learn a new state process also.

    (2) being the "L" on your ticket.

    Here is what I'd do.

    Write a letter to the court asking for a continuance THE DAY you get your court date.
    I'd ask for the back of the ticket (officers' notes)
    (Looking for if 5xx feet is a start or stopping point.)

    Ask for the make and model of the lidar gun ( I suspect stalker)
    and the operators manual for it. (3)
    AND the certification certificate for that lidar unit. (4) While I suspect it will be valid (within a year) I hope this is enough to make them think your gonna go for broke........

    Also two officers means TWO show up for court. (5) Otherwise one is using the hearsay of the other............. "he said you were doing blah blah...."

    I'd say you have five points and to hope to make at least ONE of them work for you.

    That's how I'd do it. OH and ask for the judicial notice on the LIDAR accepted in court. (6)
    -Suf Daddy KEEP US POSTED

    Originally posted by Maui
    FIGHT IT. There is a Lidar box and a radar box. if he checked the Radar Box and not the Lidar box and is stating he used LIDAR, then the TICKET IS NOT PROPERLY FILLED OUT.

    This is like writing the wrong road, wrong date, incorrect drivers license, etc.

    That is not an "L" and is very close to the check mark next to "All Civil Infractions" in look and similarity.

    FIGHT IT. If he marked the wrong method, he screwed up. He checked radar and needs to submit radar evidence. Sloppy work means you walk.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Suf Daddy.



  18. #18
    Lifer Suf Daddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Boston, Lincoln, other locations
    Age
    44
    Posts
    1,573

    Ticket Info

    MAss Reg about signing ticket: MGL, Chapter 90C, section 2?"

    http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/90c-2.htm

    "Such citation shall be signed by said police officer and by the violator, and whenever a citation is given to the violator in person that fact shall be so certified by the police officer. The violator shall be requested to sign the citation in order to acknowledge that is has been received. If a written warning is indicated, no further action need be taken by the violator. No other form of notice, except as provided in this section, need be given to the violator."


    http://www.motorists.org/ma/cases.html


    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Last edited by Suf Daddy; 10-03-04 at 08:20 PM.
    Suf Daddy.



  19. #19
    Littering and........
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    7,188

    Laser Info for the PUBLIC

    Scott, we really need to get you into internet porn, so you post things that dont put me to sleep.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  20. #20
    Just Registered
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Is it not obvious?
    Age
    46
    Posts
    3,236

    Laser Info for the PUBLIC

    Suf - you rock, thanks! Thank you for the piles of info and the links.

    Glad I'm only taking one class this sem. as I think I'm going to be studying this stuff pretty thoroughly.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    My 2 vices, not necessarily in order:
    www.gpsdiscussion.com
    motorcycleaddicts.org

  21. #21
    Lifer Suf Daddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Boston, Lincoln, other locations
    Age
    44
    Posts
    1,573

    Thank you Thank you Thank you

    Team:
    We've just gotten some great ticket info from a buddy of mine who just smoked an Ohio cop in about 60 seconds in court.
    ABOUT LASER.

    His $29 pledge is available to you FREE from Suf Daddy.

    Prolaser 3 manual W/ photos (nicer than mine)
    and
    a how to AMBUSH defense (which worked for him in about 60 seconds)............................................

    Make no mistake Mario was on the ball and discredited the guy in about 60 seconds. Since he handed out case law to the judge and prosecutor prior to the case; when he objected at about 45 seconds and asked for a dismissal when the guys background (training) was from another town/jurisdiction.....

    He's got SAC....and it worked. (I gloss over that training crap)
    He's my new hero!
    -Suf Daddy
    PM me with an e-mail that can handle LARGE files and you'll be rewarded.................
    NO hotmail.
    No yahoo.com
    No pussy services for free.

    PAY to play in the big leagues...................................

    Originally posted by somestrangeguy
    Suf - you rock, thanks! Thank you for the piles of info and the links.

    Glad I'm only taking one class this sem. as I think I'm going to be studying this stuff pretty thoroughly.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Suf Daddy.



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