I learned something

[wookie]

There has been something troubling me on the speed triple. The rear wheel breaks loose in tight corners. It scares the shit out of me sometimes. Now it only happens when I'm barreling into a tight corner, but I have crashed it from this very problem (last year - low slide). So I know I'm close to the limit when this happens.

It has bothered me because I don't have the same issue on the track. And I'm certainly pushing much harder on the track.

Then I realized I get off the throttle when a corner tightens up on me (I had no idea I was doing this until this weekend). There is a good amount of engine braking on the bike. So I'm basically hitting the rear brake while running hot around a tight corner...plus, and maybe more importantly....all the weight moves to the front of the bike when I let off the throttle. No fucking wonder the rear brakes loose.

Does this make sense to anyone?

It is funny how when you think you know what you are doing...you realize you don't know anything. I actually posted about this problem last year...I worked on my form and it didn't help...I started thinking maybe it is the bike or the tires... Yeah, it is just me.

[Degsy]

Yeah, you can't roll off in the corners without repercussions. On a big twin it'll eat you alive, on a big triple you'll get the back end squirrelly too. Give the forks a little more preload and add some rebound to the shock. Should help.

[catch2otwo]

interesting, theres been a couple times where ive rolled off the throttle and the bike got all unhappy. granted i dont ride as fast as you guys, but i never really gave it a second thought either. ill be paying more attention to that now. thanks

[spicy]

i'm surprised that it breaks loose... you must be absolutely chopping the throttle to get it to do that...

i've experienced some disconcerting weight transfer on the SV, but nothing too crazy

[spydah]

My TL was doing the same thing, but it was at the last TTD. Its never done it on the street to me. I just ran the track in a lower gear (at higher RPM) and I had less problems. At a lower gear/higher rpm the engine has more momentum so the engine breaking isn't as abrubt.

The TL has so much damn torque on the low end (where I'm used to riding it on the street) it took a bit to force myslef to let her run higher in the RPMs.

[wookie]

i'm surprised that it breaks loose... you must be absolutely chopping the throttle to get it to do that...

i've experienced some disconcerting weight transfer on the SV, but nothing too crazy

these are all good comments. Referencing the above, it only happens when I'm going over 80% on the street and I'm in a tight corner. I try to keep a nice safety margin, but some times you know.

It sound like my theory makes sense?

[R1]

Slow Press and Roll! sorry MSF yesterday.

this very situation became very apparent to me at slow speeds on the R1 during the MSF yesterday. I know blah blah blah slow speeds crap, but the fact is off the throttle the whole bike would press forward and the rear tire would do exactly what you are describing by the end of the day the only thing i did to the throttle was slowly increase the amounts during cornering and the turning was smooth as butter. the few times i did let off the throttle mid corner not only did the bike move around alot more, but my confidence in what my bike was doing also dropped.

def a great learning experience and something i might consider taking every year. The slow speed cornering techniques and smooth riding was directly transferable to the ride home ( on and off ramps )and all my future riding.

oh yeah sure you already were aware of this crap, but new to me, and i for one will work to never get off the throttle during cornering. once i got the front tire to bite it seemed the more i got on the throttle (again low speeds of course) the more the bike wanted to stay planted. the front tire held its path while the rear got more grip and became more balanced.

or i could have no idea what i am talking about and did exactly what they said and it actually worked

[wookie]

oh yeah sure you already were aware of this crap, but new to me, and i for one will work to never get off the throttle during cornering. once i got the front tire to bite it seemed the more i got on the throttle (again low speeds of course) the more the bike wanted to stay planted. the front tire held its path while the rear got more grip and became more balanced.

or i could have no idea what i am talking about and did exactly what they said and it actually worked

Good points. The only time I've ever got the front to push is on the track. Is it just me or does the front stick absolutely great unless you are being absolutely stupid?

[Punjistick]

Check out Twist of the Wrist 2. There is a lot of good info in it.

[R1]

Good points. The only time I've ever got the front to push is on the track. Is it just me or does the front stick absolutely great unless you are being absolutely stupid?

Panic breaking? absolutely stupid..... good point.

The front tire for the most part (again no track experience) remains pretty steady.

I learned yesterday that a bike is much like a computer. It has its limits, but it will only do exactly what you tell it to. The more i trusted the bike the more i learned. not saying i am gonna go out and try and drag knee on the street and nail one of the hairpins on rte 2 at 50, but just where the bike was most comfortable and where i was more confident. After that course i plan on spending at least a day or 2 a week at the parking lot down the street from me, learning more about my bike.

my bike is far more capable than i am and it is up to the rider to know what his/her limits are. for every action there is a reaction and mid turn the best solution is to be increasing the throttle but not beyond what you can handle.

blah blah blah

again all pretty basic stuff but after 2 years on the road very enlightening. I can see where as the speed increases all these cornering techniques are directly transferable. the same situation just more speed.

[R1]

Check out Twist of the Wrist 2. There is a lot of good info in it.

The problem i have with the twists of the wrist series is its very technical. sometimes hard to follow. I started to read it and found that its just worded very...................technically.

Not that i couldn't follow it, it just made riding too much of a science as opposed to an art. riding to me anyways has always been an outlet not necessarily as structured as whats in the code books. Its great to learn new things and apply them to your abilities, and i will definitely complete the series when i get some more time.

[Degsy]

Slow Press and Roll! sorry MSF yesterday.

t

Well, if it was only yesterday, you should have remembered it correctly.

Slow LOOK Press Roll.

LOL


BTW Wookie, there's a reason you lose marks in the MSF BRC and ERC evaluation for "Decelerating in a corner". Now you know why!!

(Hint, we watch the fork tubes during the evaluation to see if they dive. That's how we know you're decelerating)

I think it's great that you worked out what was doing it though.

[R1]

Well, if it was only yesterday, you should have remembered it correctly.

Slow LOOK Press Roll.

LOL


BTW Wookie, there's a reason you lose marks in the MSF BRC and ERC evaluation for "Decelerating in a corner". Now you know why!!

(Hint, we watch the fork tubes during the evaluation to see if they dive. That's how we know you're decelerating)

I think it's great that you worked out what was doing it though.

Look?!?!?!?! Alicia knew that part. I just close my eyes and twist the throttle.

oops. I thought about that when i posted it, but i figured looking was already established here.

So degsy when and where is the knee dragging clinics and more on cornering techniques? Track days and total control are already a plan, but locally for not so much money.

[wookie]

It is funny, I've put 25K+ on the road, I've done a bunch of track days, I race....and still.

BTW - I was thinking of not posting about this because I felt a little embarresed that I didn't work it out sooner. But, I figured that is part of riding. If it was so easy and we knew everything it would be a litte less fun.

[R1]

I would have gone on completely happy with what i didn't know until yesterday, thinking i was doing fine. i have always felt comfortable on my bike, but it was the little things i picked up on yesterday more so at the slow speeds that showed me what a bike is really capable of and the little things i was doing wrong.

I am sure toe to toe there would be no competition here, but the more i get into riding. Its not about competition >.< even racing there is position but its who can pull the fastest times around the track while still being in control. The only competition seems to be with yourself and pushing your own abilities.

Again with time i may learn more, but whod a thunk that one day of real riding input and information would translate so well to what i was doing wrong and the areas i can improve at. And even with time these lessons might be lost, as long as i keep them within my $1.00? worth of attention.

[Ken C]

It is funny, I've put 25K+ on the road, I've done a bunch of track days, I race....and still.

BTW - I was thinking of not posting about this because I felt a little embarresed that I didn't work it out sooner. But, I figured that is part of riding. If it was so easy and we knew everything it would be a litte less fun.

You're not alone. We all have things taht we don't know that we don't know. This is why instruction is so valuable. You can repaeat mistakes you don't even know you are making and get nowhere, or you can ask someone to follow you on track or even on the street to help diagnose problems.

Not everyone can do this. It takes someone who knows what to look for to identify the problem and how to explain the solution.

[Ken C]

The problem i have with the twists of the wrist series is its very technical. sometimes hard to follow. I started to read it and found that its just worded very...................technically.

Not that i couldn't follow it, it just made riding too much of a science as opposed to an art. riding to me anyways has always been an outlet not necessarily as structured as whats in the code books. Its great to learn new things and apply them to your abilities, and i will definitely complete the series when i get some more time.

Keep an eye out for my book which is scheduled to be released in the Autumn, called Riding in the Zone. I think it will be the kind of book you (and a lot of people) are looking for.

[garath]

The only points I lost in my beginning MSF course was for letting off the throttle on a turn (well the figure 8 also hehe). I notice myself doing it on the street sometimes as well. Even after a couple years I still have some confidence issues with the bike on tight corners and have to remind myself to roll on the throttle. When I do remember or on more gentle turns when I do it without thinking, it's a huge improvement.

[BLACK SQUIRREL]

My TL was doing the same thing, but it was at the last TTD. Its never done it on the street to me. I just ran the track in a lower gear (at higher RPM) and I had less problems. At a lower gear/higher rpm the engine has more momentum so the engine breaking isn't as abrubt.

The TL has so much damn torque on the low end (where I'm used to riding it on the street) it took a bit to force myslef to let her run higher in the RPMs.

I ride a twin and I think its the oppisite a geat higher will have less of an effect, And you can get on the gas so much earlier in the corner by the corner exit you are jumping out of the corner,

Wookie, Do not close the throttle when the corner tightens up Simply just pause rolling it on, Hold it steady the continue rolling it on at the apex or when you feel confortable.

Closing the throttle is not so much about engine breaking, as it is about loading the front and taking the weight of the rear

[newgixxerchic]

... +1 to what everyone has said... rolling off the throttle is almost the same as applying light pressure to the brakes, the weight dispursment gets thrown off balance... do exactly what mongoose was saying if you don't feel comfortable rolling on the throttle just keep it steady without rolling off any and it will be smooth.

[R1]

Taking away any power from the rear tire during a turn is going to change the weight distribution.

The bike wants to stay balanced but its up to your inputs to keep it there. whatever works best for you........... This explains so much considering somone can jump on your bike and show you what it can do because they know the techniques and just familiarize themselves with the bike and they are off. Its not the bike its the rider.................

I know the whole slow LOOK press and roll just opened my eyes to how comfortable my bike feels when the proper technique is added. also mid turn increasing radius steady throttle press on the bars more. i could be wrong i haven't got much practice on the technique yet, but ill get more familiar with it tonight.

MotoGP they coulds also just stop increasing the throttle input and keep it steady.

Again i am gonna bow out now..... i am really just inexperienced and dont have any track time.

[Ken C]

same thing as giving the bike more gas to tighten the turn... it's all good and dandy, but what do you do if you're riding the edge of the tire and the turn tightens up? roll on more and lean the bike over more?

later in the day i was trying more to massage the throttle, rather than roll off some. similar to mongoose saying where i'd try to hold it steady, or roll off only a teenie bit, rather than keep rolling on.

i still don't get it. i need a dry trackday

Hold the phone, there. Rolling on the throttle typically widens your turn, not tighten it.

The smoothest, fastest riders enter turns slowly enough where they do not need to roll off the throttle. This requires you to slow more when entering turns so you can smoothly roll on the throttle. Rolling off the throttle mid corner would be considered a mistake that indicates you must slow more for the turn. Repeat after me: Slow in, fast out.

[Manny]

I ride a twin and I think its the oppisite a geat higher will have less of an effect, And you can get on the gas so much earlier in the corner by the corner exit you are jumping out of the corner,

I agree. At a lower grear and higher RPM the motor is more sensitive so if you roll off a little you will feel it more. When you downshift (into a higher RPM) you get an increase in engine breaking, not a decrease, which is why you want to match the revs by bliping the throttle. (at least thats how I feel it)

At the cornerspeed school they talked about breaking it into steps to get set to tip into a corner. Starting with rolling off, then getting on the breaks, then getting off the bike etc, turning in and finally getting on the gas. These things blend together to make them appear to be one fluid sequence, but for learning purposes I try to isolate them and see when and where I am doing each one when entering a particular turn.

[spydah]

Oops, my bad. I mean same gear higher RPM or higher gear. Botton line is that at a higher RPM the engine has more momentum, less resistance, and less abrubt breaking ability.

[Honclfibr]

that's a big part of the confusion because i've read/heard it on multiple occasions and it's always seemed ass backwards. i suppose it only applies to when you've got a ton of lean left and you get on it a little more to lean the bike over. but that's still screwed logic too... i wish i could rememeber where i got that from.

Motorcycles exhibit oversteer. All other things being equal additional throttle input will cause the bike to tighten its turn and less throttle input will cause the bike to widen its turn.

Great thing to practice during a trackday with corners you're familiar with. Set up your turn up a bit slower than you're normally comfortable with and an entry slightly wider to the apex, then use small throttle inputs to adjust your line while keeping everything else static.

You'll be amazed at how effective it can be, and it's a great trick to learn for those of us riding shitty bikes with no suspension as you can adjust your line somewhat in a turn without the bike feeling like an angry bull.