Welcome to NESR! Most features of this site require registration, including replying to threads, sending private messages, starting new threads, and uploading files. Click here to register.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 48

How light is too light

  1. #1
    Lifer richw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Baltic,CT
    Age
    74
    Posts
    4,489

    Question How light is too light


    Really how weak is too weak...

    3 years ago I trail braked and the relative newbie 6 inches from my plate locked them up and hit a tree root humock on the side of the road. He was hot and blah blah blah off in the meat wagon but the after was amazing to me./

    I don't think the bike was actually moving more than 20 when it hit into basically soft turf lump and yet a complete total. Frame, forks, pipes and acres of plastic gone. A basically brand new 10k bike totaled.

    Here on another post is what looks like a stress related frame crack on a 10R. I already know that they don't Ha HA expect us to use the power of a liter bike more than onr percent of the time so they really can't take full power over time.without dissolving. We have gotten used too, if you drop your bike in the garage it will cost a few hundred in plastic.

    Have we finally achieved the time where all the bike has to do is win some magazine shoot outs and if it don't make it to next year that's someone elses problem ?

    I think its time for the magazine comparison what does it cost if you tip over from kick stand. What does it cost 5 MPH into a wall. Believe me 20 years ago the answer would be zero

    I guess its time for my meds rant rant


    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Glen Beck is John the Baptist

  2. #2
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Royalston, MA
    Age
    41
    Posts
    20,849

    How light is too light

    I actually think the tipover cost rating would be VERY useful and helpful info when purchasing a bike. My Z-Rex has layed down more times than a Las Vegas "Escort", and she has survived remarkably well.

    SV's hold up well too (actually toying with the idea of finding a used one next spring...shhhh).

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    -Clayton
    2021 KTM Duke 890 R
    2006 Suzuki SV650
    1982 Honda CB750F Super Sport

  3. #3
    Littering and........
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    7,231

    How light is too light

    I was actually talking about this with a friend recently - at what point are these bikes going to be so light they have to be made out of glue and tin?

    I would like to see the manufacturers start using some more interesting choices in their metal. Bikes are cheap; I would be willing to pay $1000-$2000 more for some kind of exotic metal frame that will actually hold together in a wreck without being turned into a pretzel.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  4. #4
    Lifer
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Bedford, MA
    Posts
    5,239

    How light is too light

    Carbon fiber is the future...

    It is both stronger & lighter if designed carefully.

    Take a look at a high end bicycle frame, they are totally ridiculous stupid light and they are more survivable than the old bikes. The bike I had for racing last year had an 1100g frame, and this year they redesigned it down to 850g due to continuing research into carbon, and they are claiming it is stronger than last years model. I crashed mine 3x I think without even any cosmetic damage.

    Zongshen, a chinese manufacturer, showed off a superbike they are hoping to field in 2007 or something with a full carbon frame.

    The other nice things about carbon is it doesn't have fatigue issues, and it is not susceptible to corrosion.

    Ben

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  5. #5
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Farmington, NH
    Age
    69
    Posts
    15,229

    How light is too light

    the lighter the better in an impact.... less mass means less impact force

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    RandyO
    IBA#9560
    A man with a gun is a citizen
    A man without a gun is a subject

  6. #6
    the phear hohum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Everett, MA
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,274

    How light is too light

    Originally posted by benVFR
    Carbon fiber is the future...

    It is both stronger & lighter if designed carefully.

    Take a look at a high end bicycle frame, they are totally ridiculous stupid light and they are more survivable than the old bikes. The bike I had for racing last year had an 1100g frame, and this year they redesigned it down to 850g due to continuing research into carbon, and they are claiming it is stronger than last years model. I crashed mine 3x I think without even any cosmetic damage.

    Zongshen, a chinese manufacturer, showed off a superbike they are hoping to field in 2007 or something with a full carbon frame.

    The other nice things about carbon is it doesn't have fatigue issues, and it is not susceptible to corrosion.

    Ben
    Yeah, but how much does a NICE carbon fibre bike frame cost? Gotta be upwards of $5K, no? So we'd be talkin about adding something like $10K to the cost of a bike to do a total carbon frame. The other thing about carbon fibre is that it doesn't bend well, if it bends too much it breaks (like fiberglass) so I really don't know how soon we will be seeing all carbon mc frames... unless its on a ridonculously expensive bike.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    But when we ride very fast motorcycles, we ride with immaculate sanity. We might abuse a substance here and there, but only when it's right. The final measure of any rider's skill is the inverse ratio of his preferred Traveling Speed to the number of bad scars on his body. It is that simple: If you ride fast and crash, you are a bad rider. If you go slow and crash, you are a bad rider. And if you are a bad rider, you should not ride motorcycles.


  7. #7
    Littering and........
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    7,231

    How light is too light

    Carbon fiber is definitely nice, but I was thinking more along the lines of exotic alloys. I dont know much about them, but from what I gather on the Discovery Channel, etc., they make some very strong metal/alloys that are cheaper than carbon fiber and just as strong.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  8. #8
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Royalston, MA
    Age
    41
    Posts
    20,849

    How light is too light

    Tube steel! Can't beat it!

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    -Clayton
    2021 KTM Duke 890 R
    2006 Suzuki SV650
    1982 Honda CB750F Super Sport

  9. #9
    Tifosi RSVMILLE661's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Somewhere between here and there
    Age
    45
    Posts
    1,037

    How light is too light

    I dunno.. I crashed my Aprilia HARD.. I highsided off the bike at about 100mph at NHIS and I did less than 500.00 worth of damage.. No bent forks, no screwed up triple clamps.. broken clip-ons, master cylinder and ripped up radiator hoses. some decent *race* body damage but all in all I think I spent 485.00 to fix and replace everything.

    Speaking of which.. I think I need to have Pete check my chasis again. Just to double check.. but everything felt fine this season and last season post accident.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Scott Major
    Ferrari Fix it Club Racing
    ALMS, SCCA, LRRS, CCS, FUSA #'s 161, 62, 676, 661, 205, 12, 60, 89...

    Karloff? Sidekick? FUCK YOU!! That cocksucker does not deserve to smell my shit!

  10. #10
    Lifer LuvDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Ashland, MA
    Age
    52
    Posts
    2,891

    How light is too light

    Exotic materials can be made lighter and "stronger" but they may not really be practical.

    When I say "stronger" - it depends on what kind of forces and long term stress we're talking about. yea ... they say carbon fiber is stronger than steel, but steel has it's advantages... if bent... it can be bent back.

    Carbon fiber when pushed to the point of failure is pretty much toast.

    Anyway. I think some bikes are too light already, which causes them to not handle everyday roads too well.

    They get twitchy in corners and hop on uneven roads.

    Of course... I ride a 7R... so we already know how I feel about bike weight.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    2003 ZX7R
    1995 916

  11. #11
    Fork oil in my veins.... gmdboston's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Bellingham, MA
    Age
    56
    Posts
    2,531

    How light is too light

    As motorcycle design and manufacturing evolves, chassis are getting lighter, more responsive, more agile and more capable of handling the required loads for cornering, braking and accleration. The side effect has been a chassis is less "crash-proof." The designers and engineers don't place much emphasis on preserving the strutral integrity in the event of a crash. I routienly find very badly misaligned chassis with straight forks and rarely find a straight chassis with bent forks. Most insurance totals are for the cost of the plastics, not bent frames or forks. Motorcycles are indeed disposable. You don't NEED a bike, you only WANT one, you pay for it with disposable income and use it primarily for recreation. In order to sell this concept of high perfomance, low cost fun, weight becomes a major concern. This dictates reduced wall thickness, less mass, more ductile materials and as a result less resistence to impact loads. I have "pulled out" several frame that were tuck in from a low speed bump into a stopped car, and the bike never evn hit the ground or scratched the plastics. As long as this trend continues I'll always have a job. If you want a bike you can crash and keep forever, you'll need a steel framed, anchor made from recycled manhole covers. Or you can buy a Harley...... did I just say that?

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    "If you can't afford to do it right, how are you going to afford to do it over?"-PK
    Shop Services: Good, Fast, Cheap. Pick Two.

  12. #12
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Royalston, MA
    Age
    41
    Posts
    20,849

    How light is too light

    You don't know heavy until you put a knee down on a tube-steel frame, twin shock 550lb wet 1200cc BEHEMOTH!

    It's quite the feeling!

    It's like banging a heavy hottie, then she decides SHE wants to be on top. It is still exciting, but man is it scary!

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    -Clayton
    2021 KTM Duke 890 R
    2006 Suzuki SV650
    1982 Honda CB750F Super Sport

  13. #13
    IWOK Prez. bigred875's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Manvile, RI
    Posts
    8,115

    How light is too light

    I hear ya...great thread..

    But it has to do more with the incident....these bikes survive some crashes without a scratch...and you'd swear it was totalled...then another easy low side and everything is tweaked...

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by ThisBitch View Post
    From my experience, its the natural red heads (aka gingers) that have no soul--- I mean are crazy.

  14. #14
    IWOK Prez. bigred875's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Manvile, RI
    Posts
    8,115

    How light is too light

    Originally posted by TheIglu
    You don't know heavy until you put a knee down on a tube-steel frame, twin shock 550lb wet 1200cc BEHEMOTH!

    It's quite the feeling!

    It's like banging a heavy hottie, then she decides SHE wants to be on top. It is still exciting, but man is it scary!
    <<<---- tube steel...prolly 60lbs lighter then the rex...

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by ThisBitch View Post
    From my experience, its the natural red heads (aka gingers) that have no soul--- I mean are crazy.

  15. #15
    Super Moderator TheIglu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Royalston, MA
    Age
    41
    Posts
    20,849

    How light is too light

    Yeah, i rode Oreo's. Those things you have are sooooo light and nimble! And you sit "on" it as opposed to deep down inside it.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    -Clayton
    2021 KTM Duke 890 R
    2006 Suzuki SV650
    1982 Honda CB750F Super Sport

  16. #16
    Everybody to the limit!
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Winchester, MA
    Age
    41
    Posts
    6,856

    How light is too light

    Originally posted by gmdboston
    Motorcycles are indeed disposable. You don't NEED a bike, you only WANT one, you pay for it with disposable income and use it primarily for recreation.
    If you're concerned about $$$ and intend on crashing, the easy solution is to go out and buy a bike that's 3 or 4 years old. It'll be 95% as competent and you can spend the money you saved on plastic repairs, frame straightening, etc etc.

    I mean, I bought my zx6r for 3500. At that price, I can total three of them before I approach the cost of a new ZX10. Also, I figure on the street at least, the cost of crashing is not measured by the price of the plastics you have to buy. If you're alive to fix the bike, you got yourself a deal

    you'll need a steel framed, anchor made from recycled manhole covers. Or you can buy a Harley
    Ahh, but you repeat yourself

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  17. #17
    Fork oil in my veins.... gmdboston's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Bellingham, MA
    Age
    56
    Posts
    2,531

    How light is too light

    Ahh, but you repeat yourself [/B][/QUOTE]

    exactly......

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    "If you can't afford to do it right, how are you going to afford to do it over?"-PK
    Shop Services: Good, Fast, Cheap. Pick Two.

  18. #18
    Lifer richw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Baltic,CT
    Age
    74
    Posts
    4,489

    How light is too light

    OK OK

    What if the trend continues.. Where everyday road hazards are beyond the strength of the basic components.

    It wins on the track shoot out, is praised on the streets by testers.

    The 2nd year you own it you hit a big pothole and snick a cracked frame etc.

    No magazine test will know and then a pattern of failure will be forumed and blogged and no one sane will by a used one.

    Believe me I don't want a Honda St but between their expense and their (takes more then 1 person to lift) weight are integrated frame sliders so tip overs take out mirrors only.

    Even a change in material so computrack can pull out a frame and get your bike back happy and straight.

    Ultimately some real world consideration should be at the design stage and then lauded. We all know that if everybike weighed 20 pounds more no one would notice.


    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Glen Beck is John the Baptist

  19. #19
    the phear hohum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Everett, MA
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,274

    How light is too light

    Originally posted by gmdboston
    If you want a bike you can crash and keep forever, you'll need a steel framed, anchor made from recycled manhole covers. Or you can buy a Harley...... did I just say that?
    Dunno man, 40 mph lowside on the street last week on my Triumph, if I replace everything damaged (which I am not, cos who gives a rats fucking ass about plastics) it would end up costing me about $600 plus a few hours of labor. In the end, my actual cost (since I am not about to replace the front fairing for a few scrapes) will be about $200.

    Last year, my uncle crashed his hardley 1200 in a nearly identical fashion. His total repair cost: $7000, including repairing broken frame, broken motor mounts, bags, pipes, chrome, etc, etc, etc... I don't really think you fair much better in a crash on those behemoths...

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    But when we ride very fast motorcycles, we ride with immaculate sanity. We might abuse a substance here and there, but only when it's right. The final measure of any rider's skill is the inverse ratio of his preferred Traveling Speed to the number of bad scars on his body. It is that simple: If you ride fast and crash, you are a bad rider. If you go slow and crash, you are a bad rider. And if you are a bad rider, you should not ride motorcycles.


  20. #20
    the phear hohum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Everett, MA
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,274

    How light is too light

    Originally posted by richw
    OK OK

    What if the trend continues.. Where everyday road hazards are beyond the strength of the basic components.

    It wins on the track shoot out, is praised on the streets by testers.

    The 2nd year you own it you hit a big pothole and snick a cracked frame etc.

    No magazine test will know and then a pattern of failure will be forumed and blogged and no one sane will by a used one.

    Believe me I don't want a Honda St but between their expense and their (takes more then 1 person to lift) weight are integrated frame sliders so tip overs take out mirrors only.

    Even a change in material so computrack can pull out a frame and get your bike back happy and straight.

    Ultimately some real world consideration should be at the design stage and then lauded. We all know that if everybike weighed 20 pounds more no one would notice.

    The mags aren't interested in REAL world. Its always about bigger, badder, faster, more power, less weight... These things sell sportbikes. Fact of the matter is that a modern sportbike is breakable... easily. And the trend will continue because its what the market demands.

    Think about this, one of the biggest cost factors in repairing a downed bike is the plastic, and the tank. A new tank from a manufacturer can easily run a grand or more. A complete set of plastics, also easily more than a grand or even two. All of this crap could easily be protected better with the addition of stock frame sliders, stock bar end sliders, and stock clutch/stator cover sliders. All of which would add little weight to the bike itself, and would cost little to manufacturers to do. Why haven't they done so? The market hasn't demanded it, the market demands faster lighter every year, so joe six pack can have the fastest toy on the block every year, and who the hell cares about the cost of replacing in a crash.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    But when we ride very fast motorcycles, we ride with immaculate sanity. We might abuse a substance here and there, but only when it's right. The final measure of any rider's skill is the inverse ratio of his preferred Traveling Speed to the number of bad scars on his body. It is that simple: If you ride fast and crash, you are a bad rider. If you go slow and crash, you are a bad rider. And if you are a bad rider, you should not ride motorcycles.


  21. #21
    Fork oil in my veins.... gmdboston's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Bellingham, MA
    Age
    56
    Posts
    2,531

    How light is too light

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by richw
    [B]OK OK

    What if the trend continues.. Where everyday road hazards are beyond the strength of the basic components.

    It wins on the track shoot out, is praised on the streets by testers.

    The 2nd year you own it you hit a big pothole and snick a cracked frame etc.

    No magazine test will know and then a pattern of failure will be forumed and blogged and no one sane will by a used one.

    Already happened.... 1995 Kawasaki ZX 6R The frames cracked and broke with out even crashing, 1996-97 had thicker, heavier frames. Everything is designed with a limited life span. You want sharp handling, light weight, fast powerful motorcycles? Fine just don't crash it. You want to cartwheel it down the road then pass it on to your great, great grand children? Buy a Harley.....

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    "If you can't afford to do it right, how are you going to afford to do it over?"-PK
    Shop Services: Good, Fast, Cheap. Pick Two.

  22. #22
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Farmington, NH
    Age
    69
    Posts
    15,229

    How light is too light

    less mass = less inertia = less damage

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    RandyO
    IBA#9560
    A man with a gun is a citizen
    A man without a gun is a subject

  23. #23
    IWOK Prez. bigred875's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Manvile, RI
    Posts
    8,115

    How light is too light

    Originally posted by TheIglu
    Yeah, i rode Oreo's. Those things you have are sooooo light and nimble! And you sit "on" it as opposed to deep down inside it.
    right I am dying to ride a rex..just to see the difference...I was seriously considering one when I bought my Z...they are such badass bikes..someday I will own one...

    lol..I seem to say that about most bikes...lol

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by ThisBitch View Post
    From my experience, its the natural red heads (aka gingers) that have no soul--- I mean are crazy.

  24. #24
    Fork oil in my veins.... gmdboston's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Bellingham, MA
    Age
    56
    Posts
    2,531

    How light is too light

    Originally posted by RandyO
    less mass = less inertia = less damage
    Wrong, It depends on where the mass is and what hit and at what vector... don't even start

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    "If you can't afford to do it right, how are you going to afford to do it over?"-PK
    Shop Services: Good, Fast, Cheap. Pick Two.

  25. #25
    Angry Gumball RandyO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Farmington, NH
    Age
    69
    Posts
    15,229

    How light is too light

    Originally posted by gmdboston
    Wrong, It depends on where the mass is and what hit and at what vector... don't even start
    ALL Other things being equal. yes I WILL START

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    RandyO
    IBA#9560
    A man with a gun is a citizen
    A man without a gun is a subject

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. UFO Brake Light Kit
    By NinjaSwan in forum General Bike Related
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-22-06, 03:05 PM
  2. Bud Light - SBD!!!
    By Karaya One in forum Off-Topic
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-01-04, 08:24 PM
  3. I see the Buell Blast in a new light!
    By Karaya One in forum Off-Topic
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 11-02-03, 11:30 PM
  4. I like them light and fast......
    By RevHappy in forum General Bike Related
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-29-02, 03:18 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •